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Poland issues most European Arrest Warrants


Varsovian 92 | 634
14 Jun 2011 #1
This issue has raised some controversy in legal circles but has gone largely unreported on the TV.

An EAW can be issued in any EU Member State and can be executed in any other Member State without all the formalities of extradition law. Essentially, it's a good idea, but the devil is in the details.

This throws up disparities between the workings of legal systems which can be distressing for the suspect. For instance, a Brit was arrested on an EAW for an alleged crime in Greece for which only the flimsiest of evidence was presented and yet is now languishing on remand in a Greek jail, whereas he would not have been put in remand in the UK. Hence, he may be effefectively imprisoned for 2 years, awaiting trial.

Poland has issued more EAWs than any other Member State - about 3500 in 2010. The Polish judiciary also blocked execution of 70-odd EAWs issued in other Member States. It's interesting how EAWs are executed automatically in the UK 100% of the time. The German judiciary also blocked a few dozen EAWs.

The heavy Polish use probably reflects the high numbers of Poles living abroad.

statewatch.org/news/2011/jun/eu-council-eaw-2010-9120-11.pdf
Harry
14 Jun 2011 #2
the flimsiest of evidence

'evidence' which had been beaten out of his friends.

Hopefully Polish abuse of the EAW will be a factor which finally does away with the farce that is the EAW.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,720
14 Jun 2011 #3
The heavy Polish use probably reflects the high numbers of Poles living abroad.

As I gather, it has nothing to do with Poles living abroad, but rather the problem of the Polish legal system. Under Polish law, prosecutors are obliged to investigate everything, even if it's utter nonsense - and if someone refuses to return to Poland to talk to prosecutors (or they simply can't find them!) - then an EAW is issued.

Complete and total abuse of the system, and as Harry says - hopefully this might encourage the system to be scrapped. EAW's are supposed to be used for serious crimes only, but Poland has been using them for everything. One example had someone deported to Poland to answer questions about some money that the bank claimed he owed!
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
14 Jun 2011 #4
How about the British guy who was extradited to Poland last year to face the heinous charge of.....not paying for his pudding in a cafe? Surely thats a valuable use of tax payers money?
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
14 Jun 2011 #5
It reflects the appalling ineffieciency, corruption and gereral crapness of the Polish legal system. That and the fact that the police here are also a disgrace to modern Europe.

Courts in other countries should stop accepting EAWs issued from Poland - the useless Polish legal system is abusing the EAW process.
Monia
15 Jun 2011 #6
To draw any conclusions , first you would have to read the Law concerning EAW of each member state . Polish law regarding that matter is contained in division XIII chapters from 61 - 67 of Polish Penal Code .There are plenty of paragrapghs in this division and every aspect is important so you have to study carefully to have an overall outlook on a subject . Then you would have to know all the facts pertaining the certain matter . On the top of it you would need a lawyers background to form any valuable conclusions .

Poland has blocked 70 EAW in 2010 , but how can you know the grounds of each decision when it says in given statistics in general statement that Poland blocked upon such ground as :

POLAND
- Execution would violate human or citizen rights and freedoms (recital 12 of the EAW Framework
Decision)
- the offender is a Polish citizen or is domiciled in Poland (art. 4 (6) of the EAW Framework
Decision)
- parallel prosecutions conducted in Poland concerning the same person against whom the EAW
was issued for the same acts (art. 4 (2) of the EAW Framework Decision)
- the offence was committed on the territory of Poland according to Polish law (art. 4 (7)(a) of the
EAW Framework Decision).

_____________
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
15 Jun 2011 #7
To draw any conclusions , first you would have to read the Law concerning EAW of each member state

No, you dont.
A man extradited from one side of europe to the other at the tax payers expense for the crime of refusing to pay for a bad pudding in a cafe,you dont need to be Perry Mason to figure out this law is a crock,like most of these laws it seems put in place simply as some sort of job creation scheme for every tom dick and harry with a law degree to make a quick buck,again,at the expense of Tax payers.

On the top of it you would need a lawyers background to form any valuable conclusions .

er,tell me,you really think this? lols,wow,jonni was right,your legal system is fcuked if thats the case. I suppose that comes from the fact that many of our continental cousins have a strange idea that citizens are to serve the law,not the other way round....ah well,maybe soon you may see the value of 12 good men and true.....
Monia
15 Jun 2011 #8
If you quote such a case, your comment just proves the value of comment which I stated in my post . You have to read , uderstand and tie together the existing law to draw any conclusions , without it, you will not be able to make any proper comments .

According to Law, a person

the British guy who was extradited to Poland last year to face the heinous charge of.....not paying for his pudding in a cafe?

cant be extradited because paragraph 607 b point 1 of Polish Penal Code excludes such case .

art. 607b Wydanie nakazu jest niedopuszczalne:

(a short translation : all offences carying a penalty of 1 year or less are excluded )

Give me a link so I would be able to check for myself if this was such a case .But it seems to be impossible because , a theft under 250 PLN is not a crime and is penalised by art. 119 par 1 of Polish Misdemeanour Act .

To formulate an opinion about law , only because a person can read is not enough these days , it was possible but long time before , today we are flooded by Law and only a professional can swim .

Don`t take it too personally :)

and if someone refuses to return to Poland to talk to prosecutors (or they simply can't find them!) - then an EAW is issued.

That is an utter lie !
delphiandomine 83 | 17,720
15 Jun 2011 #9
cant be extradited because paragraph 607 b point 1 of Polish Penal Code excludes such case .

This is the problem - Poland (among others) seems to have been totally abusing the EAW system by issuing warrants despite such a law in place.

Give me a link so I would be able to check for myself if this was such a case .But it seems to be impossible because , a theft under 250 PLN is not a crime and is penalised by art. 119 par 1 of Polish Misdemeanour Act .

freehootsman.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1601&theme=Printer

I'll try and find some more for you.
Harry
15 Jun 2011 #10
a theft under 250 PLN is not a crime and is penalised by art. 119 par 1 of Polish Misdemeanour Act .

"EAWs, requiring the arrest and extradition of suspects from one EU country to another, are being used by Poland for a "large volume of trivial extradition requests", according to Detective Sergeant Gary Flood of Scotland Yard's extradition unit.

He estimated that 40% of all extradition cases dealt with by the Metropolitan police originated in Poland, adding that many of the offences were so minor they would lead to either a caution or no investigation at all in England and Wales.

In one case, according to Flood, a carpenter who fitted wardrobe doors and then removed them when the client refused to pay him, was subject to an extradition request by Poland so that they could try him for theft. In another case, the Polish authorities requested the extradition of a suspect for theft of a dessert. "The European arrest warrant contained a list of the ingredients," Flood said."

guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/20/immigration-extradition-poland-lithuania-law

One example had someone deported to Poland to answer questions about some money that the bank claimed he owed!

Actually in that case the request was such utter bollocks (debt repaid in full six years before EAW issued and overpaid substantially; plus the bloke was charged with removing his possessions from his own house because a court order was issued saying that he could not, but that court order was issued the year after he removed his possessions; oh, and the Polish prosecutor planned to have the bloke locked up for at least three months awaiting trial even though he's a rather unwell pensioner) that the British court tossed it out. Unfortunately Poland refuses to lift the EAW and so now the poor bloke can't go anywhere in Europe other than the UK.
Monia
15 Jun 2011 #11
n one case, according to Flood, a carpenter who fitted wardrobe doors and then removed them when the client refused to pay him, was subject to an extradition request by Poland so that they could try him for theft. In another case, the Polish authorities requested the extradition of a suspect for theft of a dessert. "The European arrest warrant contained a list of the ingredients," Flood said.

What makes you think that a prosecutor or a judge would break the law .

That policemen is not an expert or a lawyer to know anything about EAW .

Only a judge can issue a warrant under the motion of prosecuting issued by prosecutor .

These cases are just misdemanours and EAW wouldn`t be alowed to be issued .

Do you really beleve these article holds any value . The paper men can write anything these days .

"EAWs, requiring the arrest and extradition of suspects from one EU country to another, are being used by Poland for a "large volume of trivial extradition requests", according to Detective Sergeant Gary Flood of Scotland Yard's extradition unit.

Yeah , yeah , said Flood - the expert !!!!!!!

"The Polish system requires a trial for every criminal allegation, no matter how trivial," said District Judge Nicholas Evans, one of only five extradition judges in England and Wales.

That is an utter lie too .

Said the judge who`s knowledge of Polish Penal Code is equal to zero .

Either they ( British ) don`t have sufficient workforce or money to do it efficiently .
delphiandomine 83 | 17,720
15 Jun 2011 #12
What makes you think that a prosecutor or a judge would break the law .

Isn't this quite common in Poland? Some of the judgements I've read about are truly insane and certainly not in accordance with the law. The lawyers I know are continually exasperated by this.

These cases are just misdemanours and EAW wouldn`t be alowed to be issued .

This is exactly the problem - Poland's legal system seems to be in such a mess that it isn't stopping EAW's being used - even when it's clearly against Polish law to do so.

I've always thought that lawyers in Poland are generally quite good, but the court/investigation system is a total mess.

Monia, isn't it the case that the prosecutor is obliged to investigate thoroughly and cannot drop an investigation? That's how I've always had it explained to me - that even if the prosecutor thinks it's nonsense, they still have to bring it to court?
Harry
15 Jun 2011 #13
What makes you think that a prosecutor or a judge would break the law .

Who says they did?

That policemen is not an expert or a lawyer to know anything about EAW .

He knows more than you: he knows what the EAW in question says.

These cases are just misdemanours and EAW wouldn`t be alowed to be issued .

Poland issues EAWs for very minor offenses. In one case a British man spent weeks in prison in the UK and then when he got to Poland the case was resolved by payment of an administrative penalty with no criminal record. Or the recent case of Tomasz Zak v. Regional Court of Bydgoszcz, involving an offence of receiving a stolen mobile telephone (it was worth 300zl and Zak supposedly only paid 100zl for it), which prompted Lord Justice Maurice Kay to observe that "one is becoming used to European extradition cases for less serious cases . . . but I’ve never seen one quite as low down on the calendar as this."

In 2009 Poland issued 4,844 EAWs but received only 286 in total from other EU states. Thanks to that the Metropolitan police in London are chartering a plane to fly prisoners to Poland once every three weeks.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
15 Jun 2011 #14
I have to go back to work , so I elaborate more on that in the late evening or tomorrow morning .

Please do - you've tried to defend the dreadful legal system here but not really commented on the actual thread - which is that Poland issues a disproportionate amount of EAWs.
Harry
15 Jun 2011 #15
Poland issues a disproportionate amount of EAWs.

And issues them for things which would be dealt with by police caution or just left alone as not in the public interest to prosecute.

Oh and of course expects the bill, which runs to more than half a billion zloty every year, to be picked up by other people.
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
15 Jun 2011 #16
So,in short, am I paying for this or are you?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,720
15 Jun 2011 #17
I'm not quite sure about this actually - some sources say that the Poles are picking up the bill, other sources say otherwise.

Time to ask Sidonia, I think.
Harry
15 Jun 2011 #18
I'm not quite sure about this actually - some sources say that the Poles are picking up the bill, other sources say otherwise.

The exporting member state always picks up the bill for an EAW being processed.

And each one Poland issues costs the UK an average of 110,000zl to process.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,720
15 Jun 2011 #19
The exporting member state always picks up the bill for an EAW being processed.

Who in the hell agreed to that?!

It's from the Wail, but seems to be quite objective -

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1252375/Con-Air-UK-Flights-Polish-criminals-home--cost-25million.html
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
15 Jun 2011 #20
Could they not set up a Polish court on Embassey territory here in the UK to procces these cases prior to deciding whether they warrent a full extradition?
Monia
18 Jun 2011 #21
Monia, isn't it the case that the prosecutor is obliged to investigate thoroughly and cannot drop an investigation?

This not true , of course ; a prosecutor supervises cases( which are not conducted by him ) and the police investigates them under the prosecutor`s supervision and when there is not enough evidence the case will be discontinued

This means in reality that a prosecutor will never bother to supervise any case when the police will not present him with sufficient evidences .

BTW It would be fair if that newspaper would send his men to make some enquiries here in Poland and not assuming everything .

Having 5 Judges in the whole british system for the purpose of EAW is simply a farce .

Poland issues EAW for very minor offenses.

It is up to a polish judge to decide not English Policeman nor English judge .

The purpose of EAW is to bring a criminal under the justice system of every member state in every case which is already pending even in small petty crimes (two exeptions were mentioned about in my some other post) to give the public the feeling they live in a secure system where every criminal will be prosecuted , sentenced and punished .

In my opinion you can blame either the British system for the whole situation or Polish criminals who think they could escape the justice by simply leaving Poland and fleeing to England . To their surprise this is not a case any more under the new system of EAW .

Poland issues as many EAW as it is needed and nothing more . If it makes the largest amount among of all countries, this means nothing , but the fact that polish criminals feel comfortable to escape Poland and seek quiet asylum in England.

Poland's legal system seems to be in such a mess that it isn't stopping EAW's being used - even when it's clearly against Polish law to do so.

On which specific evidence is your expertise based upon . Maybe you should start consulting Polish Ministry of Justice to reform that system as an expert with such an experience and deep reflections .

In turn, if we compare the expenditure on courts throughout the state budget , it turns out that Poland spends quite a lot ! Bo spent on Themis more than twice the percentage of the state budget than Germany and nearly three times higher than France and Italy .

There are 8800 judges in Poland .

The most reliable way to assess if money sent to justice system are big or small is to compare them with all budgetary expenditures as justice is part of a budget .

Poland`s expenditures on justice system go as the second largest in Europe just behind Norway , at the level of 1.78 % of the state budget.

England spends the less money in its budgetary expenditures in Europe at the level of 0.14 % of the state`s budget . It is time for England to spend more , isnt it ?
Harry
18 Jun 2011 #22
It is up to a polish judge to decide not English Policeman nor English judge .

So is Poland going to pay the bill for a Polish judge deciding that it is worth spending 125,000zl bringing to court somebody who may have known that the phone he was buying was 200zl too cheap and so may have been stolen? How about the bill for the Englishman whose papers weren't properly looked at by a Polish policeman? That Englishman had valid insurance but he still spent weeks in prison because a Polish judge decided that was the right thing to happen. Can Poland pick up the tab for that?

Here's the question: if the Polish justice system spent 125,000zl of your money chasing somebody who they could have just asked to send them a letter, would you consider that a good use of your money? No? So why is it OK for them to waste British money? On civil matters!
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
18 Jun 2011 #23
but the fact that polish criminals feel comfortable to escape Poland and seek quiet asylum in England.

Thing is though,we dont give a stuff what happens to Polish crims'.....using it against British people who used their common law right to with hold payment from sub standard service though is where it starts to bug people,not to mention passing the bill to me and every other british tax payer,thats like paying someone to mug me.....
Monia
18 Jun 2011 #24
On civil matters!

EAW is not created for civil cases ! Don`t comment on cases you don`t know , I wouldn`t dare to make any comments if I didn`t go through the whole evidence material .

we dont give a stuff what happens to Polish crims'...

We feel the same about English crime , but the EAW is just to bring a criminal, who escaped to another country, in order to face the Polish justice system . All member states signed the act , England did the same , so you as the tax payers have to pay for it , as other contry tax payers do the same , we do that also . Blame for all the polish criminals not Polish state or people .
Harry
18 Jun 2011 #25
EAW is not created for civil cases !

So why are Polish courts using it in a case involving an unauthorised overdraft? And in a dispute over a supposedly substandard unpaid for dessert?

I wouldn`t dare to make any comments if I didn`t go through the whole evidence material .

Yes you do: you criticise policemen who have seen documentation which you have not seen.

the EAW is just to bring a criminal, who escaped to another country

So why did Poland use it to imprison a British driver whose documents were not properly inspected by a Polish policeman?

I note that you've completely ignored the question I asked about your money: so now we all know the answer.
Monia
18 Jun 2011 #26
who have seen documentation

In EAW procedure the English policeman is a peron who just follows orders given by the judge not to comment on the case, which is pendant in Poland . That is very silly to think that a simple policeman is given all the evidences which are kept in Poland . He receives just a court order with its short justification .

Yes you do: you criticise policemen who have seen documentation which you have not seen.

I don`t make up any comments as opposite to you . Why don`t you use your common sense and admit that you were wrong .
Harry
18 Jun 2011 #27
Not quite: the British policeman is also a taxpayer and so pays for the excesses of the Polish court.

That is very silly to think that a simple policeman is given all the evidences which are kept in Poland .

Because sometimes there is none and the Polish court doesn't try to find any: that Englishman had insurance and could have easily proved it if he was asked to. Instead he was locked up for weeks.

Yeah , yeah , said Flood - the expert !!!!!!!

Flood is the man who has seen the warrants in question.
Monia is the supposed lawyer who has not.

I don`t make up any comments as opposite to you .

Oops, looks like I just caught you lying, again.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
18 Jun 2011 #28
Poland issues most European Arrest Warrants

Does anyone know in what kind of cases EAW can be issued. Is it different from country to country or is it an unified procedure in the entire EU?
Harry
18 Jun 2011 #29
Unified. An EAW can be issued for any crime which can be punished by three years in prison. However, you can technically get three years in prison in Poland for shop-lifting.
guesswho 4 | 1,289
18 Jun 2011 #30
thanks, sound like bad times for criminals, lol

Oh, maybe one more question. Do all EU countries proceed equally when pursuing those cases?


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