Poland hosts lowest proportion of foreigners in the EU

10 per cent, so that would be in WCS 50 mln. That still leaves 90 per cent, 450 mln in the EU who are non-Muslim. You could say the same about the Chinese. Officially there are perhaps a mln or so, but unofficially there are dozens of mlns of them.

>^..^<

M-G (minorities - they are in less numbers than we are, why are they considered a threat in that case?)

Future threat, and that's what the vids were about. Even if the trends presented in the video are not accurate, there's little doubt that the natives have far smaller reproduction rate than the Muslims. If it stays like that, then in, say, two generations at most, Muslims can strongly influence politics in France, UK, Germany. Personally, I wouldn't be happy about that.

That very well may be, as nobody can see in the future. There is a chance that they will start to influence govts of respective countries, but this doesn't necessary mean a bad influence. Say that they want more mosks as the number is low. I wouldn't have a particular problem with that.

I'm not a big fan of sharia law and all that jazz as I am not a fan of religion as such, but maybe it's just a way of profiling themselves. The more Europe is bashing on them, the more fanatic they will get. It's a natural response, you should know that as Poles under the Communist yoke turned massively to the Catholic Church.

What I think will happen, and neither I can look in the future, so it will all remain a guess, is that the numbers will level eventually and the Muslims will become so Westernized that they kinda automatically will adhere to the various standards of life we maintain.

Like I said in some previous post, in the big cities of NL there are certain small-scaled projects taking place in order to bring the diverse ethnic groups closer to each other. They are still in their infancy, so it's too soon to draw any conclusions, but the response is positive so far, both from the local inhabitants of the neighbourhood as well as from the immigrants in the area.

One particular project is especially successful: in a relatively small neighbourhood in Rotterdam live app. 5000 ppl, of which about 3/4 is immigrant and the rest locals. There were lots of troubles going on in that area, especially between locals and immigrants. The area has a small police station which often had to call in help from the bigger ones. Then one officer, familiar with the locals and the immigrants, had an idea. He went talking to both groups and it turned out that most of the locals were unhappy with the fact that there were so many immigrants. Not that they were immigrants, but because they had taken over local shops and bars and so on. The shops had turned into Turkish shops with Turkish stuff to sell, Pakistani shops and so on. They had to go to far away to buy the stuff they wanted. The immigrants were complaining about the closedness of the locals - never allowing to make contact on a loosely basis. Also they complained about the lack of customers, which made them hardly survive.

Then the officer went to discuss the outcome with his superiors and together they came up with another idea: they took a group of about 200 locals and immigrants, put them on a bus and drove them to a small village in Frisia (a Northern province of the Netherlands) as there were no foreigners at all living there. There they talked with the villagers, who complained that they had to drive 10 kms to a nearby town to do their shopping and how they missed the village shop and all. Also they talked about the social dynamics in the village. What the idea was: to show that they themselves are a little village within a bigger city and that they should act like one.

They returned and the officer convinced the immigrants to start carrying Dutch articles besides their original stock. On the other hand he showed the locals that the shops were now selling stuff they need and the neighbourhood shops were accessible for them too. What has happened since then is that the locals have start buying in the local shops, run by immigrants, the son of the Turkish vegetable shop keeper is doing twice a week his rounds past the elderly to take up the list of vegetables and fruit they want to have, the Moroccan butcher started carrying non-Halal pork, beef and chicken and gets Dutch clientele. Contacts have been made and both groups are now involved in neighbourhood parties, invite each other over for dinner and so on. There is nearly zero crime in the area.

In a recent interview the elderly who had been complaining about foreigners merely a year before, were now very happy with the services provided and the son of the vegetable guy has become a sort of friend of them. They won't vote on hate parties like the PVV in NL anymore. On the other hand, the Turkish and Moroccan shopkeepers don't need to listen to radical imams anymore and are becoming Westernized in high speed.

Sorry about the long story, but I just wanted to mention this as it shows that positive things can and will happen, as long as both parties are willing. It may be a small example, but it gives hope for a better future without hatred.

Edit: about the low birth rates in Europe: that's an ongoing problem within all Western countries - you can't hardly blame the rise of Islam for that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Gotta go. You'll get the answer, though.

Nobody would. Even MG with his "tolerant" attitude. I hope these predictions will not materialize somehow.


Our western culture has few taboos that can’t be violated, and our establishment has largely given up on setting standards in the first place. Except where Islam is concerned. There, the standards are established under threat of violence, and accepted out of a mix of self-preservation and self-loathing. This is what decadence looks like: a frantic coarseness that “bravely” trashes its own values and traditions, and then knuckles under swiftly to totalitarianism and brute force.

Happily, today’s Islamic would-be totalitarians are too marginal to take full advantage. Islam’s radical fringe is still a fringe, rather than an existential enemy. For that we should be grateful. Because if a violent fringe is capable of inspiring so much cowardice and self-censorship, it suggest that there’s enough rot in our institutions that a stronger foe might be able to bring them crashing down.


Left wing dalliance with multiculturalism allowing the spread of fascist Islamism is misguided: they are barely aware of the Islamists’ long-term agenda to establish a radical form of Islam which will ultimately allow no inter-religions or intra-religious dissent. Two philosophies are mutually contradictory at practically every step of the game and cannot possibly forge a genuine relationship based on universal humanistic principles. If you can't see that you are naive.

@nott: K. See ya.


As far as I know, Christianity, Judaism and Islam all believe in the same god. Jesus Christ is recognized in the Koran as an important prophet. And there are other things that are similar. If both parties are willing, then a pace inter pares is very well pssbl. But as long as hatemongers and scaremongers keep on spouting their stuff into the world, there will be no peace, while it's very well pssbl.

Edit: but when I look around here in Dublin, the vast majority of foreigners is either Pole or Chinese with a handful of Muslims here and there. How's the situation in Quebec?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Great stuff, Bibz! ;)


I see peeps say this kinda stuff here all the time. And you just call them "racists". Go figure... :s

MareGaea

Where in the World do Muslims live in peace with other non-Muslims: Nigeria? the Sudan? the Middle East? India? Philippines? Yeah, I'd say burn the book (it's a freedom of speech issue). They're big boys they can handle it.


Of course religion is a lifestyle that's why we have separation of Church and State.


You can't legislate morality (you can't legislate a lifestyle).

Only a handful say it. Five, Six at the most. But they're the loudest, so it seems like there are more.


So you won't have any problems if ppl start burning the Bible? After all, it's a freedom of speech thing.

Heinrich Heine said: "when they start burning books, they eventually will start burning ppl."
And he has been right every time so far.

Only dumb idiots could agree to bookburning as it's one of the lowest states mankind can reach.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Turkey, Malaysia, Lebanon, Albania, Cameroon...lots of places. In fact, the good majority of places.

You are not serious. How is Jewish minority in Saudi Arabia or Jordan? Is there one? Christian minority's school flourishing in Turkey? How come you can get killed for selling Christmas trees in Lebanon? And so on ...

As usual you don't have a clue:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Turkey
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Lebanon

Can't be bothered by finding more sources, just do a simple search on Google.

Stop basing yourself on incidents and start seeing larger trends and above all, stop viewing things from a Christian right-wing perspective.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Open society confronted with an expansionist totalitarian system, straight from the book. Sikhs are quite strict in their faith, yet they don't spill it on others, no problem with them. They have a few privileges, but they don't abuse them. Orthodox Jews - same thing. Both religions have their True and Only God, yet they don't care about those miserables who can't see the truth. None of them would demand 'religious hours' on the public swimming pool, with specific dress code. Muslims did, and got what they wanted.


I would. Not with the mosques as such, but with the influence. One of Muslim duties is Jihad, struggle, which boils down to promoting Islam by any workable ways. And they treat their religion seriously, not like Europeans.


Europe didn't bash them into Khomeini regime, nor into Saudi et al. Expansionism is the very core of Islam, and every Muslim will tell you that, if approached carefully. Allah is the only God, The Word is The Truth, and the Truth is to be followed by everybody.

Poland is a different story altogether.


They might, I can see some examples myself. One, actually, and this is an example of a person brought up in Finland, in a Muslim family isolated from a Muslim community, immersed in the West, so to speak. Perfect example of what you'd want to see. A devout Muslim with quite liberal approach to life and people. And I know other Muslims, apparently totally Westernised, and I spoke with them. Conclusions are not optimistic. These are people who might not like a too direct approach to spreading the God's Word, but they will not oppose it.

Muslims living in a Muslim community is another thing, and the more they follow the imams, peaceful or not, the worse it gets.


If this project is considered particularly successful, then the future is dark.

People left to themselves developed a troubled society. This was only rectified by an outside intervention, and in a country dedicated to maintain peace regardless of ideologies involved. Were the government dominated by Muslims, the outcome would be quite different. No suggesting pork to Muslim butcher.

This particular idea itself, from my London perspective, is hard to believe. There was a case of a Muslim who sued Tesco for trying to make him to handle beer cans with a forklift. One of my Westernised Muslims was offered a sandwich, then he saw it's meat, inquired about what meat it is, and politely refused on religious grounds. Fair enough, only he left shortly after, for a minute, to wash his hands. A quick cleansing. Until then I thought he was a Hindu, or maybe a Christian.


It is a small example indeed. I don't claim that Muslims are totally incapable of adapting - which is a condition sine qua non, as you say yourself. If Islam was any closer to the European Christianity as it is now, I'd see little problem. First thing is, Islam must change. It doesn't where it's strong, and the dynamics of it's spread doesn't give much opportunity to the common Muslim folk.


And I don't. And I don't blame Muslims for high birth rate, and I don't blame French for low birth rate. Things are developing, in a direction I do not like.


There is a place in Hell dedicated for infidels, Jews and Christians included, and in prominent place. That's what I learned from an Islamic 'primer'. So if the message starts with complete and brutal exclusion of non-Muslims, then what is the attitude in the inner circles?


If. Both. Google for 'Akkari file'.

And you stop looking at what was 700 years ago and start looking what's happening TODAY.

To help you educate yourself watch this

cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6743208n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
"Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the leader of the 300 million-member Orthodox Christian Church, feels "crucified" living in Turkey under a government he says would like to see his nearly 2,000-year-old Patriarchate die out. "

Did I mention Saudi? Saudi is a theocratic dictatorship supported by foreign powers, much worse than Iran as far as freedom of religion is concerned. Funny you should mention Jordan, that's probably a shining example of Christians and Muslims living together just going about their business. There are quite a few Christian schools in Turkey, hell, have you been to Turkey? And Lebanon, you might want to tell the Christians and Muslims that work at Bou Khalil that they could get shot selling their little Christmas trees...

Have you been to any of the places that you mentioned?

I think the vid raps of a birth rate among Muslims of 8.1 on average. I don't think this number is correct because if you have, say 5 families with 2 children (and I know for a fact that there are plenty of them) you will need about 20 families with 10 children to get to this average. And there are at least 100's of thousands of Muslim families with only 2 or 3 kids, so the vid implies that there must be millions of Muslim families in the EU with 10 or more children, which is simply not true.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

How does this differ from Christian belief?

Doesn't Christianity do the same?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Conveniently not.


You can watch the same 60 Minutes program. It explains a lot.

So what you are trying to tell me that any religious minorities in any Muslim country have a picnic?

I didn't mention it because it's not a place where various religions live together without problems. It's a theocratic monarchy propped up by "Christian" nations. The question was, is there anywhere where Muslims and non Muslims live together without problems. I offered up some places.


Did I say that anywhere? I said, there are plenty of places where Muslims and other followers of other religions live peacefully side by side. I gave a couple of examples based on first hand experience. That's all.


You forgot to mention that the reason that it might die out is because he no longer has any followers. If they were trying to shut him down, they wouldn't tolerate him breaking the law by being a non Turkish religious leader. Old Ataturk knew what he was doing there, and put those laws into place in order to prevent foreign religious meddling in internal secular Turkish affairs. In Turkey, all religions are in the decline. Old people go to mosque. You also fail to mention the Greek-Turkish conflicts, it seems that you're trying to turn long standing territorial hostilities into a religious conflict.

I was trying to write something similar but you perfectly explained the situation. Your knowledge about the subject is really impressive. What matters is not religion but Political influence.

It was an answer to 'Muslims see Christians as brothers'. They don't.

Christians never claimed Muslim-love. Until recently. The Church changes, all the time.


Neither do I, actually. Still it's significantly bigger than white's. 2-3 children per family is more than 1-2, this not including couples with no children at all. And there are no French immigrants coming to France, as opposed to Muslims.

It depends on the place. Most places have more loyalty to region/locality/country than their religion. Albania and Macedonia are good examples.

I guess so. Except that Macedonia is on the 21/22 list:

keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/of-the-22-world-conflicts-around-the-world-21-are-muslim/

edit: (You missed the point, and I got baited. The discussion was on theological points, not on practice of living)

Muslims are peaceful in the UK too. Except stubborn attempts on blowing up some passers-by.

Ok, this is a 'radical minority with no support in the majority of peaceful, hard-working Muslims'. The second part of this sentence bothers me, though. No general open support, granted. Quiet acceptance, seems like. Open support by some leaders, documented.

'Seems like' needs explanation. As I hinted already, I have some close contacts with Westernised Muslims here. Quite willing to discuss Islam, as the faith requires. One conversation started with my blunt question about Muslim terrorists, and the answer was prompt and curt 'idiots'. So I asked about Jihad, and now the picture was somehow different: there is High and Low Jihad, the high one being personal struggle for perfection, the low one happening to be violent against other people. But which is the true one? People have right to personal interpretations and still be Muslims, as Islam is One. No condemnation, then.

Since then I got sensitized to opinions on terror by Muslims, and I met 1(one) person who satisfied me. That girl brought up in Finland: 'these are NOT true Muslims!'. So Islam is a religion of peace, yet warmongers are a legitimate part of it .

The topic seems to be wandering

Thank God there are a low percentage of foreigners in Poland now. Historically most foreigners in Poland like yourself became the enemy within in Poland.

Actually, historically, most foreigners were Polonized which is why you have so many patriotic Poles with non Polish last names... You know, like the good Marshals family :)

Lol. Harry is certainly that!

We got the same problem over here...

Examples? (Of people who were not "enemies" when they came to PL, but became it after some time.)

The biggest threat to Poland is Poland itself.

I'd estimate that the vast majority of foreigners in Poland are paying taxes, being good citizens and helping to build the economy. On the other hand, there are vast amounts of unemployed good-for-nothing Poles, along with plenty of Poles on disability pensions that they have no right to claim.

So - as I say - the biggest threat to Poland is Poland itself.

Let's not forget that certain universities (cough cough Poznan Medical University cough cough) would collapse without the foreigners there.

Nice to see that you're carrying on that proud Polish trait of being xenophobic though.

What he means is that anybody who was Polish and ever did anything bad automatically lost their status as Polish and became Ukrainian/Belarussian/Jewish/etc, because as we all know Poles are the 'nation of never wrongs'.