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Germany After the EU and the Russian Scenario - future of the European Union and Poland


Tacitus 2 | 1,413
11 Jul 2017 #271
o be sure, nobody's ever accused DER SPIEGEL of being (horrors!!) "objective" in her news reporting

No media outlet is truly objective, just like in every country they have a specific target audience. That being said Der Spiegel has very good investigative journalists, and they are particulary good in exposing scandals and they are very reliable when it comes to presenting facts. It is just important to keep their critical attitude in mind e.g. when reading articles about Merkel's foreign policy (in general they think Merkel is too hard on Greece, too soft on Erdogan and not vocal enough about the detoriation of democracy in Poland and Hungary).

One amusing story which highlights their bias against the CDU. Der Spiegel was vehently against every foreign political decision the first chancellor Konrad Adenauer made (although they did have respect for the man), particulary his decision to anchor West Germany to the West and thus (supposedly) perpetuated division of Germany. Their opposition to his government even laid the ground for the incident that cemented his reputation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegel_Affair

In a recent edition that celebrated an anniversary of their magazine, they covered every post-war German chancellor until now. In the passage about Adenauer, they put much emphasis on his (undeniable) more controversial domestic decisions, while they only talked about his foreign policy in passing. They sheepishly ended the passage with the statement: Today, most historians agree that Adenauer was right on the most important foreign political questions of his time. That is a bit odd, considering that Adenauer's lasting legacy was mostly in him laying the framework in which German foreign policy works until today.

Don't lie, they were not begging for Germany to give hundreds of thousands of people to cross borders illegally

@ mafketis

Don't lie, they were not begging for Germany to give hundreds of thousands of people to cross borders illegally

They were begging for other countries to relief the pressure on them by taking in some of the refugees. In fact Tsiprashas afterwards expressed his gratitude to Merkel for her decision.

global.handelsblatt.com/politics/how-greece-learned-to-love-merkel-484454

Merkel knows the fragile situation in the Balkans better than most Western leaders. With the decision to take in those refugees who are still on the Balkan route, she probably prevented an escalition of the situation that might have ended in violence, which could have happened if the countries in the Balkans had decided to shuffle to refugees around until they were stuck by fences.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/05/angela-merkel-europe-unfinished-business-balkans
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
11 Jul 2017 #272
Yet another informative, worthwhile post, Tacitus!

SPIEGEL aside for the moment, I happen to be a Merkel-fan (if such is pc to admitLOL) who also happens to feel she's been terribly maligned within her own party, as well as by her own countrymen. While scarcely a "perfect" leader, she probably has more ability in her little pinky finger than many a US-President of late has in their entire body. Even Obama, who surely differed on policy issues, praised her as a pragmatist.

A crying pity some of that "pragmatism" didn't extend to consulting her neighbors concerning the Greece-bailout or weighing far more deeply the impact of the migrant crisis:-))
Tacitus 2 | 1,413
11 Jul 2017 #273
@Lyzko

Well, it is quite obvious that Merkel is a very skilled diplomate if nothing else, and personally speaking, I'll likely vote for her again this year.

A crying pity some of that "pragmatism" didn't extend to consulting her neighbors concerning the Greece-bailout

I have to disagree with you here. I think the way Merkel dealt with Greece is one of the best example for her multilateral approach to diplomacy. When everything was said and done, every country agreed to her suggestions.
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
11 Jul 2017 #274
Hate to be sarky, old man, but how much of that negotiation was in fact Schaeuble, and how much Merkel?:-) Tsipras needed both much more than they needed him.

I felt she acted too precipitously (voreilig) myself. That is only my opinion!
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
12 Jul 2017 #275
Schmidt and Kohl had their Genscher, Merkel has her Schaeuble, her grey eminence and elder statesman upon whom she can always rely for some well-thought out advice:-)
Ironside 53 | 12,560
12 Jul 2017 #276
You still miss the point about this issue that affects Europe

I miss nothing. Stop shipping people into Europe and deport all illegals back onto the African shore. Go after mafia and money and shady deals in smuggling people. simple enough but yet there is no political will.
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
12 Jul 2017 #277
If they are actually illegals, I would agree. Again though, it was political wheeling and dealing behind the scenes which took them to Europe in the first place, and not some romantic Emma Lazarus-style "yearning to breathe free"!
Ironside 53 | 12,560
12 Jul 2017 #278
Those political dealing are clearly shady and harmful to Europe. What for all those politicians are getting paid for? To ship them in?
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
12 Jul 2017 #279
Now we [FINALLY] understand each other, Ironman:-) That's what' I've been saying all along.
Wulkan - | 3,203
14 Jul 2017 #280
When everything was said and done, every country agreed to her suggestions.

Someone must be living in a different reality in some other universe.
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
14 Jul 2017 #281
I roundly concur, Ironside, and it's probably YOU!

In fact, those countries who were asked were undoubtedly coerced in some measure into going along with Merkel's plan. Being the head of Europe's economic super power does have certain advantages:-)

That being said, I emphasize, only those countries who were consulted. Poland might not have been among them.
Crow 155 | 9,030
8 Feb 2018 #282
Speculation or reality, what you think. An article deal with possibility that Russia and western Europe clash in war.

"Europe and Russia could go to war - inadvertently"
b92/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2018&mm=02&dd=08&nav_id=103451&utm_source=B92&utm_medium=Document&utm_campaign=Related-Chrono&utm_content=%22Europe%20and%20Russia%20could%20go%20to%20war%20-%20inadvertently%22

The report, cited by Reuters, says that the risk is now higher due to "the erosion of arms control agreements, deployment of additional weapons and tensions over military exercises."

Spike31 3 | 1,813
29 Mar 2021 #283
"Germany's top court blocks approval of EU £640bn Covid fund - 'Violates the constitution'"

There's still some sanity in Germany. German constitutional court blocks a common EU debt and further federalization of Europe.

msn.com/en-gb/money/other/germanys-top-court-blocks-approval-of-eu-c2-a3640bn-covid-fund-e2-80-98violates-the-constitution/ar-BB1f4JVs?ocid=uxbndlbing
amiga500 4 | 1,572
29 Mar 2021 #284
Wow that is big news. The European Court of Justice will not dare contradict this as will lead to open legal warfare. Intersting what happens next. Basically Germany is usurping its superiority over the EU legal institutions. Poland has ammo in it's pocket now fighting future 'rule of law' attacks from the EU.
jon357 74 | 22,087
29 Mar 2021 #285
The European Court of Justice will not dare contradict this as will lead to open legal warfare

They're a court. "Open legal warfare" is what courts do.

Poland has ammo in it's pocket now fighting future 'rule of law

No it hasn't. And why would any country not want to have the rule of law?

Anyway, the problem lies with one particular political tendency, soon to be out of office.
Crow 155 | 9,030
29 Mar 2021 #286
I don`t worry for Poland. Poland is extremely lucky. Will join with Serbia in the post-Covid world.
Spike31 3 | 1,813
30 Mar 2021 #287
Basically Germany is usurping its superiority over the EU legal institutions

Germany is the main sponsor of this socialist dystopia (well, a lot of their sponsorship is at the expense of euro-drained south European economies but nevertheless) so it's a dangerous move for the whole leftists EU project.

That's the second time a German constitutional court has positively surprised me. And let's not forget the anti-lockdown pressure* the Germans put on Merkel's lockdown policy lately.

In face of those facts, I'll have to readjust my mostly negative views about modern Germany.

theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/angela-merkel-reverses-plans-for-easter-covid-lockdown-in-germany
mafketis 36 | 10,971
30 Mar 2021 #288
Interesting: If you put "20 Years of the Euro: Winners and Losers" into google you'll find a pdf with that same title.

The Euro has been bery bery good to Germany...

"Germany has gained by far the most from the introduction of the euro; almost € 1.9 trillion between 1999 and 2017. This amounts to around € 23,000 per inhabitant. Otherwise, only the Netherlands has gained substantial benefits from the introducing the euro" p. 1

"In the first few years after its introduction, Greece gained hugely from the euro but since 2011 has suffered enormous losses. Over the whole period, the balance of € 2 billion or € 190 per inhabitant, is only just positive" p. 1

"the euro has resulted in a drop in prosperity: € 3.6 trillion in France and as much as € 4.3 trillion in Italy. In France, this amounts to € 56,000 per capita and in Italy € 74,000."

The document is from Feb 2019 and I doubt if the last year helped much....

Why is maintaining this pseudo-currency good for any country but Germany (and to a lesser extent - the Netherlands)?
amiga500 4 | 1,572
30 Mar 2021 #289
An good comparison would be between Czech who have the korunua and Slovakia who adopted the euro. I know in the latter there was really bad price increases when it was introduced. Don't think it has helped their economy in tems of growth and investment relative to Czech either. The Euro ( a montery union ) is useless without a corresponding fiscal union.
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
30 Mar 2021 #290
It seems that Poland's apparently intense dislike of the EU is motivated more by sheer self-protectionism along with her historic rivalry with Germany (more than even with Russia) compared with for example BREXIT which was motivated by Britain's desire for economic independence.
jon357 74 | 22,087
30 Mar 2021 #291
Poland's apparently intense dislike of the EU

More the failed PiS regime's dislike, rather tha Poland's. The EU gets particularly high approval ratings amongst Poles.
jon357 74 | 22,087
30 Mar 2021 #293
Whoever it is won't be any worse.
jon357 74 | 22,087
30 Mar 2021 #295
We don't.

Extremist was on the rise in Europe; hopefully the trend will move away from that.
amiga500 4 | 1,572
30 Mar 2021 #296
We don't.

Yeah be carefull what you wish for . You might end up in a camp for gays under a Falanga flag, with Ironside supreme leader of the konfederacja polish reich. then you will be pining for the good old days of PiS
jon357 74 | 22,087
30 Mar 2021 #297
Yeah be carefull what you wish for .

Careful.

Fascism creeps in easily; however nationalism which was on the rise in Europe is now strting to steadily fall.
Lyzko 45 | 9,321
30 Mar 2021 #298
I was under a different impression. Intererting.
amiga500 4 | 1,572
30 Mar 2021 #299
@Lyzko
Poles are happy to be part of the EU, because they see benefits to it, not to any sentimental attachment to a supranational state like maybe germans. But they still resent EU trying to tell Poland what to do in regards to migrants and some other matters. Once Poland becomes a net payer rather than a beneficieree of funds peoples viewpoints of EU might change. They do appreciate the Shengen zone and being able to work easily for more money in Germany and U.K etc.
jon357 74 | 22,087
30 Mar 2021 #300
I was under a different impression

people genuinely like it. An end to isolation, and most people look west rather than the PiS-like ciemnogrod east.


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