European News and Poland Thread 2

Ireland is not a member of NATO. Europe is not one country.


I could point you to a couple of Irish forums where all views are represented regarding world politics and indeed Irish politics of which Irish people are highly critical even though we actually are one of the most democratic countries in Europe. But the average Irish person with a basic secondary school education is able to express themselves forcefully and bluntly on political, social and moral matters without becoming hysterical or resorting to swearing. It could be a revelation to you.

You might want to reconsider that....

the goal of European political elites (especially those western) is very much one country Europe, to my understanding

The goal of some. The Holy Roman Empire bis, which of course means a greater Germany at the heart of it.

Ireland (like Britain and some other key parts of Europe) tend to hold a different view.

We have seen that view (that the HRE was great and the EU must move towards that) here from a German poster, although he is far from being part of any political elite.

What????🤷

It's not likely. It would have to go to referendum and I don't think the Irish people would agree.


We are island nations and even though the Romans came to Britain they really left no lasting impact while of course they were never in Ireland at all. We, Brtian and ireland, have a sense of separation and difference. Just look at our legal systems. Roman law never took hold in Britain and Ireland while it is the basis of modern European law. The Brits and the Irish are much closer to each other than we are to mainland Europe.

Just want to clarify, my reference to the Romans is of course in relation to the ancient Romans. However that's where the idea of the HRE comes from and I do feel that the legacy of the Romans is key to an understanding of European history.

Like Russians and Ukrainians????

No. Nothing like. The comparison is so silly that you'd never expect to hear it.

Maybe no, maybe yes. :):):)

Just no.

Unless one country is claiming that the other doesn't exist and is invading it.

There was me thinking that we respect each other's sovereignty and enjoy good relations.

Why so brutal?? Relax. :):):) First, let`s discuss why so many Brits look down on Ireland and Irish, just like Russians do with Ukrainians. :):):


What you know is your private business and it doesn`t necessarily correspond to what I know. :):):)


Relax. I wasn`t talking about wars. I only alluded to attitudes. Most Brits stereotypically view the Irish as barbarians. You can`t deny it coz that is a fact.

That is why I can`t understand why you are so childishly defensive and insecure now. AmaSSing!! I always thought you were a fair Brit with a sound judgement. Was I mistaken for all those years???? :):)


Then you have to change the forum. Good luck. :):):)

Do they? Where did you pull that gem from?


It's not, y'know...

Yes, there are quite a lot of articles describing anti Irish sentiment and prejudice among the English which goes back to the times when Ireland was British/English and which has continued till today.

Hickman and Walter explain that in centuries past and continuing in the 1990s, English people often increased their self-esteem by denigrating the Irish, Welsh and Scots (268). Walter writes that in London it was still common in the 1950s and 1960s to see signs saying "No Irish, no coloureds," near others saying "No dogs" (86). The "dirty Irish" was a common stereotype among the English, even in the 1990s, but "the central stereotype [is] of the male, working-class 'Paddy'" who personifies "'brawn' rather than 'brain'"

You want to sweep it under the carpet but I won`t let you do it. Sorry. Fair means fair in everything.

No, I don`t know it yet. ):):)

More on this site.
journals.openedition.org/jsse/1514?lang=en

E.g.,

In Britain an Irish accent can trigger the "Irish joke," generally aimed at the Paddy's supposed stupidity (Hickman and Walter 272). In the 1990s English cartoons still mocked Irish construction workers at building sites and pubs (274), revealing underlying fears of Catholics and "foreign invaders" (272-274). The Irish who claimed public benefits in England were often called "scroungers" in the 1990s.

etc etc

Just someone's opinion.

have you ever encountered this directly? Or just read online for the sake of an argument.

Well, I can say that in the six years I spent living in England I never experienced any anti-Irish sentiment from the English, quite the contrary. The only people who made a derogatory comment about the Irish to me were a Scot and a South African.

The relationship between the English and the Irish is a complex one. Here's an excellent summing up of the situation I found randomly on Reddit:

"the uneducated thicko who is prejudiced against 'the fick paddies'. This sort of chap is also prejudiced against his fellow Englishmen who are the wrong colour or have opinions which differ From his own. He can be irritating, but has little real influence these days. There are also laws against his racist foolishness.

The educated guilty white bourgeois type, he feels guilty about what imperialism did to those poor little leprechaun folk, and hates Ulster unionists because they foolishly like being in the United Kingdom. This leads him to befriend Irish republican terrorist types.

Luckily most English people are quite nice and not noticeably different from Irish people except in accents."

And just to conclude, another random quote from the same discssion:

"Yeah we kick back against the English in Rugby and football and ball- hop them a bit. They do the same to us but we love them. There are many similarities between the Irish and English and subtle differences."

I think this is your mistake. That is... it's not really common for Russians to disparage Ukrainians for being Ukrainian - either. Important not to mix geopolitics and relationships between normal people.

How could Russians routinely insult Ukrainians, if something like 50% of us have Ukrainians in our families. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I think we disparage each other frequently in front of foreigners, but not really when around each other - unless it's friendly trolling.

For example, I have a friend I made in NY who is Ukrainian, from Ukraine. His dad is a far right nut, and is a member of OUN-UPA (Bandera's old organization). The guy himself has debated going back home to enlist. I imagine you guys think that when we get together it must be akin to a nuclear explosion. But it's not. I sh!t on Zelensky, he sh!ts on Putin. He doesn't call me an orc, or tell me to go step in front of a car. I don't suggest to him that he should be sent to Siberia. That would be ridiculous.

Comparable to Germans/Austrians? Prussians/Bavarians?

...oh and how we two can insult each other, heh:) We are happiest with firm borders between us too...

Apart from instances of antisemitism or skin color-based racism, that I witnessed, I've never encountered any two groups of people that routinely insult each other in some malicious way. It's the type of stuff that only exists in forums.

Then again, I've never been around Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda, or never truly got to sample Korean and Japanese people congregating in one space.

Scratch that. I've remembered an instance where I saw someone literally insulting someone for being from somewhere. It was a British Pakistani abusing an Australian, at a bar in Georgia, for being a sheep-f&cker. He just wouldn't let up. Eventually the Australian got pretty upset. I have to admit, it was funny to watch.

I'm just saying familiarity even common culture/DNA doesn't mean automatically loyalty, "undying friendship"....often it's quite the contrary...people with a long, close, colorful history know each other best, also the worst parts!

Well said!

If you have a large country and a small one adjacent, much of their history is going to be like Game of Thrones.

People can move on though, and most people aren't fixated on the nationality and perceived national characteristics of others.

Well....Poles still like peoples far away from them much better than those close to them! *shrugs* :)

As a man (from a country in Britain that is adjacent to England) once sang, it's not unusual.

Germans don't have any enormous love for Poles or the French either, right? I suppose elites find it easier to think and act outside of stereotypes and old grudges. For ordinary folks it takes a bit longer (like a century longer). :)

What we need is a common dangerous enemy....that should help! ;)

...that or the Chinese....two years back nobody here had Russia on the screen!

China is the biggest threat.

They have plans and the means to achieve them.

True!

....nobody said the West is always the smart one!

At least Germans are thinking now hard about to take it all back....or at least as much as possible, as fast as possible!