Election marathon 2018-2020 in Poland

Yes, because German aristocrats who turned Polish are the best patriots of Poland. E.g,, do you know the story of Józef Unrug, a German who defended Poland against Nazi Germans? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Unrug

Pics from a certain ballot station in a big city. PiS wasn`t so bad. Wiosna and Konfederacja - just like in Poland.

Entitled voters - 1088
Actual voters - 661
KE - 332 (50,22%)
PiS - 210 (31,77%)
Wiosna - 49 (7%)
Konfederacja - 30 (4.5%)
Polexit Party - 2

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  Election station
  
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  Grafin von Thun and Hochenstein - German Polish aristocrat
  
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  Turnout
  
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  KE votes
  

Meh.... The Germans in Poland are there just to exploit the market and conditions as Poland gradually catches up to the wealth of the West. I'm sure there were also some northerners who "cared for" the antebellum south during the reconstruction. It's no different in Poland. Germans destroyed the country completely and then make money of us as we rebuild it. It was the same **** after communism in the 90s with all the Marriot brigades coming from Germany.

Of course, but you are talking about businesspeople. While I had Polish German aristocrats in mind - they are strongly pro -Polish. :):)


Yes, but they were punished for that by losing their Eastern territory.


I mentioned that Polexit party which operates(d) exclusively in southern Poland. Funny guys - they only got 2 votes out of 661.

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  No to partition of Poland
  
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I'm very skeptical about "strategic" relations between Poland and Germany on a state level. And I don't really like the German mentality of enforcing their views on the others, which also happens now in a softer version of pushing neomarxist agenda on Poland .

But the justice needs to be given to those who deserve it. There were some great Poles of Germanic background. One of them was Emil "Nil" Fieldorf a war hero who fought on Polish side in WWI and WWII. Of course that doesn't change the fact that most of them have tuned against Poland during WWII. So much more kudos to those who didn't

Yes, but remember that Poland joined the EU because Germany pushed for it. Whether it was a practical move (bufer zone on German border) or recuperation for past sins (2WW), is left for historians to research their motives one day. The fact is a fact.


Nil too? Wow, thanks, it is not popularised too much.

And we lost the east and south, not to mention being ruled by Stalin and the ussr on top of the country being annhilated. Post nazi Germany was better off after the war than poland. Then as soon as Poland opened up the first people to take advantage of the situation. It doesn't bother me so much that they invested brought products and companies but rather that they ripped off a lot of locals especially farmers. A lot of poles simply haven't felt that they benefitted all that much during the boom years and even now that's why pis is popular there especially. They like that pis wants to keep some of that money and protect certain key industries which too much owner foreign hands could greatly affect the political situation i.e. media, banking, etc.

Yes, there has been such a sentiment in Poland, especially in its backward areas. Communist era has produced many homo sovieticus guys in Poland, they got accustomed to being offered everything by the state, they didn`t need to show any initiative, ambition, determination to make their lives better. Such attitudes have survived till today and that is why PiS is so successful.

Of course, you can guess that as a self made man, I am wholeheartedly against such way of thinking. PiS is spoiling people, that`s all.

Hey ,guys, have you heard about the latest developments?


Yes, PSL (Folk guys) are thinking of creating a centre Christian block for the next elections (thinking means planning but no decisions have been made yet). However, more and more rumours suggest they might even join PiS. :):)

polandin.com/42896485/psl-to-go-it-alone

The leader of the PSL, Władysław Kosiniak-Kamysz announced on Saturday that his party will build its own electoral block which is to be called the "Polish Coalition". He invited all those who share the PSL's values and beliefs to work with the new entity.

More condescending, snobbish, arrogant nonsense.

OK, but mind you said it to Dirk, because I only agreed with him. :):)

Further developments: Biedroń announced today he is inviting SLD, Zieloni and Razem to build a coalition together. Will SLD leave EC to become Wiosna`s partner? Very interesting.....

Backwards to you, not them. Most in turn are pretty happy and aren't interested in what w Europe or you wants them to be, how to think, etc. You call them backward, they call you an elitist. And they don't want to change.


Most countries have subsidies and other programs for citizens especially farmers. To say that those people didn't need to make their lives better is ludicrous as if 500 zloty is sponsoring them. And what is Germany doing giving 1500 EURO that's ******* over three times as much!!!Those doctors and engineers who came to w Europe your progressive Utopia sure got quick to that government support lol and they weren't even commie countriea except e germany. They are the neobolsheviks and this time they're really hooking up the turd worlders up. Too bad the citizens aren't getting as much now especially seniors who have been citizens for decades. That's what your blessed Merkel put in place. ROFL and here you criticize a little over 100 euro going to polish families... Jesus... Oh and those migrants getting over a thousand euro a month in cash, aervices, housing, food yeah they really aren't showing initiative... Unlike the poles even the most backward whoall helped to put the country into one of the strongest economies in Europe

What your saying bullshit quite frankly. Also this shows you don't know much about the PRL. It was the exact opposite - very little was provided by the state. That's why there were shortages. And the things that were provided sucked. If you wanted to have a decent life you had to hustle and most people did in their way.


Why because pis gave families a little over $100 bucks a month? That people automatically makes them have "no need to show initiative, determination." That's ridiculous. $100 is nothing in Poland now. Even now that's only some 2 3 days of work on a minimum wage. It helps, but it by far doesn't meant that somehow the state is now sponsoring them.

And I'll have you know that the reason why people support pis isn't primarily because of the 500zs. It's that in combination with everything else - traditionalism, conservativism, patriotism, populism, etc. The 500z was the icing on the cake for families.

It's not 500 zloty, it's 500 zloty per kid, and it does make a difference. It's not just an extra 100 dollars as icing on the cake - for a struggling family then it can triple the money they might have left after they paid rent, transport and food. I would have thought with your Ivy League education you would understand the value of marginal income.

I am not totally against it - it is having some positive effects and improving equality and standards of living, but it does need to be funded.

There are plenty of people who would vote PiS because of the conservative agenda, but the 500 plus and the subsequent give aways are what is winning elections for them

I don't think it is a case. In PRL there were PZPR elites/UB/Milicja who had their own shops easy access to get flat/car. There was propaganda about equality in socialism but in reality it was like in 'Animal farm' - We are all equal but some are more equal than other. I remember famous phrase by Jerzy Urban -government spokesman in 80-ties that 'Rzad sie zawsze wyzywi'- and who cares about masses.......they can queue all night to buy fridge or washing machine....or queue for few hours to get some meat scrap for lunch.

I can't help it but it reminds me PO times and maybe this is the reason (denied but some) why they lost last election.I can see parallel situation in USA-people are just fed up with these 'elites' with superior attitude.

It is rather childish comparing current situation to PRL era. It is free market now and anyone can show as much initiative as they can. As I am aware most European countries have some form of child benefits and this 500zl will not make anyone a millionaire.

They have completely failed to articulate a positive self-image on economic issues. Part of the reason of course is that they have become much more neoliberal than they were at one point and all neoliberals accept the proposition that those who are poor are just stupid losers who deserve no consideration or help.

But PiS doesn't really articulate any positive message either (and will not be able to given that the prezes is a fundamentally negative personality)

An OLD commie bag Not Polish aristocrat. You lying fool.


Remind me who pays your salary? Taxpayers? You were saying? Can I call you homo from now on on>?
Besides homo sovieticus support PO if anything after all those state farms workers vote in the west of the country vote on them...

And those "elites" after '89 tranformed into "businesmen" who sponged on "privatised" property. They've also lobbied for extensive concessions and regulations in economy so they wouldn't have to compete on a free market with normal Poles.

* I have to abuse quotation mark since many words have a different meaning for a free people and different for neo-Marxists.

I completely agree with you. They come across as backwards, intolerant ,conservative and too dependent on church but......they don't create this feeling of 'elite' -we are better educated and so superior that anyone who voted PIS is stupid and uneducated. I find it quite annoying. Again there are some people with more balanced views whom I respect. There is this journalist Aleksandra Rybinska- very intelligent women.

It is not elitist to point out facts - that levels of support for PiS are correlated with low efucation, low levels of income and low levels of tax payment. That is the truth however bad it makes you feel

@cms neuf

Election is about majority so clearly arrogant 'elitists' are in minority.

If you mean people with a hig h level of education then yes they are in a minority.

If you mean people in full time employment then yes they are in a clear minority - 9m of them in Poland. It is not sustainable that they will pay for limitless promises made every few years.

The current spending promises have not been tested in a more difficult economic time and when they are the results will not be pretty.

So rather than look down on them, figure out ways to get them more involved in education and the labor force. Being right and condescending is never a winning formula.

What kind of message beyond "We're not PiS!" can the opposition get behind?

Not my job - I pay my taxes and I employ people.

it's up to the politicians to figure out how to use those taxes to make the country better, and if their view is that the easiest way is to shovel cash into peoples pockets send we need to wait and see what the results are.

And support for Po is correlated with fags, beta males and koderast pensioners with too much time on their hands. That doesn't mean it's all voters, same as pis.

If PO are so ******* smart they should've introduced a 600 plus program to counter pis. But it wouldn't of mattered they wouldnt be #1 now just as in 2015.

And no, $120 per kid is nothing in Poland. You can't even get a liveable place for a family below 2k z's. And that's not even considering food and bills. For the majority of families receiving it it certainly helps but is by no means a game changer. 500 z's is basically 2 3 days of minimum wage work

Whether it is a lot in Illinois terms you can discuss. In a typical PiS voting town you can certainly get accommodation for a lot less than 2000 zloty per month.

The 500 plus is a mathematical challenge however - even for an Ivy League guy. The average salary is 5100 and the PIT on that roughly 450 zloty. So whoever is at that level and claims 500+ for one kid is costing the state more than they contribute. There are of course millions of Poles paid below that level. Which means funding it from VAT, corporate taxes, various new taxes or eventually from debt, Gierek style. It is fine now but it won't be fine forever.

And so a 600 zloty plus would not be such a great idea.

in other words a majority of the voters in Wrocław....

@cms neuf

I am not sure why you are so obsessed on this forum about this 500 zl child benefit.It is becomimg quite petty. There will be always some pathology and rich families who don't need it but for average family it is just financial help. What about Sweden school books, lunches, uniforms transport.....everything is paid by 'taxpayers'.How socialist is it?

In my opinion very stupid decision was reducing retirement age to 60- every European country increases retirement age as there is no enough money for pensions, people live longer. This will not last long.

I am not - as i said it has good and bad points. What I am against is bankrupting the country for even more election sausage.

A Swedish system would have its clear advantages but it first needs a wealthy country and political maturity

@cms neuf

Regardless 500 z's is not a lot of money in any part of Poland. It's 2 3 days of minimum wage work.... Not a lot of money at all. It helps families sure but in the grand scheme of things it's not very much. It basically covers food for 3 people for a week and that's budgeting buying cheaper stuff. Any a non ivy leaguer can see that's mot very much money considering the cost of common goods in Poland. I guess you just don't like the fact that polish families are getting some help.

You should be talking about all the money that is going towards the migrants in Germany and other countries. Now that's an economic burden on the taxpayers who are overwhelmingly Europeans while the benefits leeches are overwhelmingly turd worlders. 1500 EU a month a person vs 500 z's for native taxpaying family of 3. The numbers don't even compare....

If I were still a German taxpayer then I would indeed be upset about it. I am not apart from a few euro of interest so they can worry about that themselves.

For an average Poles 500 zloty is a 15 percent increase in net income, and it exceeds the goats tax income for that person. That is the issue, not what it can buy.

Being as you don't have kids and don't live in Poland you would have no idea what a family shop costs here, but in my house for a week it's about 200 zloty if we are careful, 300 if we are not, so that 500 zloty is the same as two weekly shops for 5 people.

That is why it is called benefit- not tax deduction. It is probably funded from different taxes like vat, corporate tax .....but it is the same in all European countries. Some people never worked for a day in UK and they get free house, child benefits....who pays for it? If we agree with it or not it is like it is.

You cannot calculate everything in mathematical way. What about disabled person who can't work and gets benefit....What about prisoners .....

What about them ? They should be supported by the state, by my taxes. There are far less disabled people than children and so that is a manageable burden. Handing out money to people that isn't need it, just to win votes, takes it away from real needs.

Of course not everything comes down to maths, but public finance ultimately is one of the things where maths matters. What is paid out has to be paid for - either by taxes or by debts or by cuts in other areas. The govt is gong down the route of debt which spells trouble down the road.

Stop comparing the situation to Sweden, Germany and Britain - they had 80 years+ If capitalism, are richer and it is easier for them to raise taxes and borrow money, Poland is a young democracy and needs to establish creidibioity financially to prosper in the long term.