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Election marathon 2018-2020 in Poland


Spike31 2 | 884
3 May 2019 #361
He gave a lecture in Warsaw today

Yes, I watched some of that pathetic display. All "jokes" and no substance, that's all I can say about Tusk and his speeches. Even TVN "experts" have criticed him for not delivering any serious political statements in his speech.

Once we create an outpost for a National Clown, he has got my vote. Right now he needs to be satisfied with a role of a Second Clown in the EU right after red nosed Drunker, I mean Juncker.

he called to respect constitution

As a legalist I obey the constitution yet at the same time I'm in favor for changing it completely [by legal means]. The constitution written in 1997 is simply a bad piece of law, especially when it comes to constitutional powers of a President of Poland.

So I would say that I obey the law but I don't respect this constitution.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
3 May 2019 #362
All "jokes" and no substance, that's all I can say about Tusk and his speeches

As the President of EC, he should not show any direct involvement in one country`s politics. So, apart from allusive jokes, he spoke about more universal issues, e..g, smog. It is sad you call it as no substance. How many Poles die each year because of pollution? And PiS government is doing nothing about it.
Ironside 48 | 9,913
3 May 2019 #363
he called to respect constitution

So he is using his position in the EU for instigate partisan bickering in Poland. Typical no good MF!

llusion to PiS which has broken it several times since 2015.

Sure, sure, why don't you take your pills ....
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #364
Lech Wałęsa had to deal with the authorities as did so many; his anti-soviet credentials are impeccable.

Bolek was a paid collaborator and informer for the Communist authorities going back to the 70's.

tvn24.pl/raporty/ksiazka-ipn-walesa-to-bolek,149

You clearly know nothing about Walesa's past. But that's seems to be the same for all you Bolshevik sympathisers.
Dougpol1 33 | 3,270
4 May 2019 #365
a paid collaborator and informer

So what did Walesa supposedly tell the authorities in 1970 then? What his workmates had for dinner?
You speak like an expert, but should know that plenty of people were guilty of much more. How did Geremek get to go to university? There's plenty on just about anybody, if you want to be pedantic about it.

The truth is clear to any half-wit. Just buy yourself a cheap plane ticket - visit the Solidarity museum in Gdansk...
...And in Room A - in pride of place, is the table where the agreement was signed between Solidarnosc and the government delegation. The photograph features Walesa at the centre with Kaczynski at one side. All of the people are out of focus in this photoshopped version, including Walesa - but not Kaczynski - because he was so important in that process.

Not.
A soviet style attempt at re-writing history and I have no idea at all as to why Walesa's lawyers haven't busted that lie wide apart.

It is amusing that I'm not even Polish Bolek - but I have taken the trouble to learn a lot more about my adopted country than you will ever "learn" from grandad.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
4 May 2019 #366
So what did Walesa supposedly tell the authorities in 1970 then? What his workmates had for dinner?

So many questions and all the answers could be revealed if the SB and associated foreign intelligence of the time were made public.

Time to open the archives and let the moths fly.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
4 May 2019 #367
Here is some interesting news, now I am not a PIS or PO supporter so I expect no personal jabbering back at me, that means you Pawian.

President wants EU, NATO written into Poland's constitution

thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/418564,President-wants-EU-NATO-written-into-Poland%E2%80%99s-constitution

Now please explain why a party that is derided as right wing nationalists would wish to write EU and NATO membership into the Polish constitution?

Would this not scare away right wingers from the PIS party?. Why would he suggest this close to election time?.
Dougpol1 33 | 3,270
4 May 2019 #368
Because PIS are desperately trying to be all things to all people (a bit like Tony Blair's Labour - the difference being that the worlds' 5th largest economy could afford socialism)
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
4 May 2019 #369
a bit like Tony Blair's Labour

True good point, but whilst solidly embedded in the EU PIS would always be under the watchful eye of the EU lawyers and regulators, you would have thought if they did truly have a radical right wing agenda this would be the last thing they wanted.

Just being the devils advocate here , I find it an interesting twist.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 May 2019 #370
Now please explain why a party that is derided as right wing nationalists would wish to write EU and NATO membership into the Polish constitution?

Elections, Dolno. He claimed that the EU was a mythical creation last year, because that was their agenda then. Now that they've realised that the opposition are (somewhat successfully) portraying PiS as the party of Polexit and that voters are getting scared, they've suddenly decided to pretend to love the EU.

Would this not scare away right wingers from the PIS party?.

I suspect it's the result of careful political calculation, which shows that Kukiz'15 are going to struggle to gain any representation and that Konfederacja are also struggling to get over 5%. They've got nothing to lose by moving more to the centre ground on this topic right now.

There's also a certain point that rural voters won't go for Kukiz/Konfederacja anyway and they probably won't vote in the election, so coming up with random ideas about the Constitution won't do any harm. We all know that he's talking bollocks anyway, just like he was over the plan for a new constitution that everyone ignored in his own party.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
4 May 2019 #371
So Do folks here think it is a good/bad idea to have this as part of the constitution?, should it/ has it to be done by referendum?.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 May 2019 #372
To be honest, it's pointless. There are no effective ways of enforcing the Constitution if it gets broken as PiS have proven, so putting it in there would be a waste of 100m (the cost of holding a referendum).
mafketis 21 | 7,476
4 May 2019 #373
There are no effective ways of enforcing the Constitution if it gets broken as PiS have proven

Yes, their victory has been the biggest threat against the rule of law since communism - true to the PRL origins of Kaczyński....
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
4 May 2019 #374
So he is using his position in the EU for instigate partisan bickering in Poland. Typical no good MF!

Don`t rely so much on the black propaganda spread by PiS controlled state media.

I expect no personal jabbering back at me, that means you Pawian.

I never jabber at people. Only when they truly deserve it. :)

Would this not scare away right wingers from the PIS party?. Why would he suggest this close to election time?.

It is a fog of war made by PiS to calm down those voters who fear Polexit. PiS isn`t going to introduce such changes anyway, at this stage it is only babbling by a puppet president. Words are only words, one can say anything, it doesn`r cost much, don`t be so naive.

You also said you find it an interesting twist.
Not at all, PiS realised that through their brutal rejection of the EU in the past they could have lost too many centre pro European voters. They have already lost them, so it is too late. Now PIS is striving for their lack of interest, I mean they hope that pro European voters will stay at home during elections and won`t vote against PiS.

These are tricks as old as the hills, after the won elections PIS will again remove EU flags from their offices, like they did before.

- true to the PRL origins of Kaczyński....

Yes, he is the biggest political pest of all, instead of integrating Poles, he consciously divides them.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 May 2019 #375
Yes, their victory has been the biggest threat against the rule of law since communism - true to the PRL origins of Kaczyński....

What's interesting to me is watching how people rabidly support the dismantling of the rule of law. I can understand why the party members would (especially as PiS is run more like an army than a political party), but it's strange to see ordinary people so rabidly behind it.

Then again, a former PiS shill on this forum in Warsaw now works for one of their media outlets, so perhaps that goes a long way to explaining it.
10iwonka10 - | 396
4 May 2019 #376
I have impression that this forum is getting quite extreme. For some PIS is all evil of this world for other they are 'saints'. Lack of objective views, opinions. I would be personally quite interested to read more balanced opinions.
mafketis 21 | 7,476
4 May 2019 #377
For some PIS is all evil of this world

No, but they're a corrupt and cynical party that is not doing anything good for the country (especially in terms of sabotaging the rule of law, favoring instead PRL style 'rule of party leader')

PO is also pretty terrible (whoever on this forum calls them 'saints'?) but slightly less terrible than PiS. There are some decent politicians scattered around different parties but Poland still hasn't gotten the hang of functional political parties...
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #378
I have no idea at all as to why Walesa's lawyers haven't busted that lie wide apart.

Because it isn't a lie and there is a ton of documentary evidence showing that Bolek was a Communist collaborator and informer.

ipn.gov.pl/pl/aktualnosci/38564,Biegli-z-Instytutu-Ekspertyz-Sadowych-potwierdzaja-kto-pisal-donosy-TW-Bolka.html

No wonder PO want to abolish IPN as well as CBA. PO are very much pro corruption and will do everything to keep as many uncomfortable truths under wraps.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 May 2019 #379
Because it isn't a lie and there is a ton of documentary evidence showing that Bolek was a Communist collaborator and informer.

Except there isn't. It's already been shown that the evidence was a forgery, which is why there hasn't been any court case about it. You'd think that if these claims had any credit, they would take Wałęsa to court. They haven't, which says it all.

PO are very much pro corruption and will do everything to keep as many uncomfortable truths under wraps.

Exactly what I'd expect to read from a PiS supporter. Remind us about the corruption in Radom, Misiewicz and all the other examples from this PiS government, why don't you?
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #380
Remind us about the corruption in Radom,

You seem conveniently overlook the HUGE number of corruption scandals which took place throughout the rule of PO-PSL

wpolityce.pl/polityka/389315-dluga-lista-ciezkich-grzechow-platformy-o-czym-chca-zapomniec-aferzysci-jak-demontowano-panstwo-male-podsumowanie-wielkich-afer-po-psl

The outflow of funds from the public purse was unimaginable - enough to pay for 500+ for a few decades.

Here is the list (probably more to come...)

Afera taśmowa, która pokazała, że "państwo polskie istnieje tylko teoretycznie" a interes narodowy wyparty został interesem prywatnym biznesowo-politycznych elit.

Afera Amber Gold - usilnie zamiatana pod dywan

Afera reprywatyzacyjna

Afera stoczniowa - czyli doprowadzenie polskich stoczni do upadku Afera hazardowa

Próba doprowadzenia LOT do upadłości

Afera autostradowa, która doprowadziła polskie firmy do upadłości

Afera stadionowa

Afera wyciągowa

Skok na OFE i ograbienie Polaków z połowy oszczędności emerytalnych zgromadzonych w funduszach (153 mld zł)

Afera z KGHM

Afera z Elewarrem

Afera stanowiskowa - Platforma wzięła 140 tysięcy stanowisk, PSL - 60 tysięcy!

(...)

wpolityce.pl/polityka/350029-to-trzeba-wiedziec-jak-rozkradano-panstwo-za-po-psl-kto-chce-powstrzymac-reforme-sadownictwa-jak-jest-naprawde-co-sie-poprawi
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
4 May 2019 #381
I have impression that this forum is getting quite extreme.

That`s the nature of the PF. You wanna see threads about past elections? The same extreme opinions. So, time to get used to it. :)

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-presidential-elections-debates-58491/

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-parliament-elections-october-52131/

There are some decent politicians scattered around different parties

Even decent politicians can go to the dogs. In 2011 I supported J. Gowin when he was in PO: My candidate - a Krakow conservative representative of libertarian PO, Jarosław Gowin, No 3.. But later he joined PiS and became famous when voted for the supression of independent judiciary and commented on it: I voted for but didn`t enjoy it. What a swine!

PO want to abolish IPN CBA.

BS. When PO ruled, they allowed Central AntiCorruption Burreau work without any political pressure, they hadn`t even removed PiS head of it. Now PIS fully controls CBA which they cleaned of all PO men and immediately close down all investigations which might harm PIS politicians. It has happened a few times already.
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #382
he consciously divides them.

Strange that for such a divided country PiS has remained way out in front in the polls for such a long time. If anything the country is uniting around PiS as most people begin to compare the vast improvements in the Polish economy over the last four years with the corruption and stagnation of the previous eight years. The average Polish family can see that their living standard has increased immeasurably since PiS came to power.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
4 May 2019 #383
You are manipulating facts like furious PiS media. :):) Families with 3,4 children, yes - they can say immeasurably. Families with one or no children - absolutely not - they complain about rising prices of food and fuels, but they are deprived of benefits.
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #384
especially in terms of sabotaging the rule of law,

Erm..you mean reforming a corrupt judiciary....
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
4 May 2019 #385
You seem conveniently overlook the HUGE number of corruption scandals

Manipulating like PiS media again?
Why do you call them corruption? Most of them were simple political decisions introducing changes into the system.

But you know I can make a similar list with PiS scandals. When I have time, I vow I will prepare it for you. Some of these PiS scandals are the same as PO`s that you included in your list, e.g., OFE funds grab.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
4 May 2019 #386
Lack of objective views, opinions. I would be personally interested to read more balanced opinions.

You won`t read them. :):) . Those PiS defenders educated in the Kremlin disinformation factory, e.g., bolek tusk, Dirk or Ironside, make it impossible to run an objective debate. They only attack the other side and vehemently defend PiS or nationalist parties. They will never admit their favourites also make mistakes, take wrong decisions or are harmful to Poland`s interest. They have to be constantly reminded of it and that is why it looks like we lack objectivism.

I think we can say discussing things with such interlocutors excludes objectivism a priori. :):)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,481
4 May 2019 #387
You seem conveniently overlook the HUGE number of corruption scandals which took place throughout the rule of PO-PSL

Selling out your own people is a common feature of EU boot lickers PO-PSL in Poland. It's been that way for decades.
cms neuf - | 1,027
4 May 2019 #388
Whatever else happened under PO rule economic stagnation was not a problem - disposable income doubled in that time and most other economic measures significantly improved during the same period.

In fact the same is true for pretty much any period from 1991 onwards - and the acceleration in the economy since 2004 is strongly driven by EU membership

Bolek out of interest have you ever worked or done business in Poland ?
Dougpol1 33 | 3,270
4 May 2019 #389
Because it isn't a lie

I was referring to the photograph - which deliberately misleads the uninformed that Kaczynski was in some way more important than Walesa in the Solidarity agreement.

Laughable, if it weren't so palpably wrong, and such stupidity should not be allowed to stand - but PIS control the museums and the information they educate the young with - as did the communists. One and the same.

And Iwonka - with respect - you choose not to live here. We have to put up with much shite from this government. The above point that I mention is only propoganda, but simply shows that you Poles haven't yet fully learnt your lesson from your communist past. And obviously don't wish to, as it's in the blood.
bolek_tusk 3 | 243
4 May 2019 #390
the supression of independent judiciary

You mean authoritarian judiciary... Name another country where the judiciary in unaccountable. In a proper democracy there is always some element of voter control over those who exercise power. The judiciary is simply one element of a government. Why should Poland's judiciary be able to rule itself and be exempt from oversight by the man in the street who pays its wages?

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