The Economist: time to rethink old notions about Poland

Might be time to close up shop, you can only pump massive amounts of resources into failing businesses for so long. Subsidies are destroying farmers.


"doing good"....for Poland. Same as a lawyer "doing good" by having a VW golf, and not a BMW, a doctor "doing good" by going on vacation to Spain, not owning a house there.

It's kinda hard when that's all you have known. Your home is tied with your work and there aren't many transferable skills in today's competitive world.

Some VW Golfs are older than others ;) ;)

Why should others have to adapt, and farmers are excluded from that requirement? The workers in the village who were employed at the shoe factory that closed down because it was no longer viable, they aren't getting the handouts that failing farmers are getting.

For me, it's a question of values and incentives. Place a high priority on farm production/quality of output and you will make many consumers happy. They have a very important role in society and there is a combination of labour and technique in what they do.

Says who? Maybe they are claiming other benefits of some description. You want to keep farmers in the game, there can be fallow periods and they should be guided through them.

Over the last about two years, as many countries have fallen deep in to recession, huge unemployment and repossessions.
Poland has done comparatively well with plus GDP growth, a steady increase in wages and still lots of motorways being built.
Just looking at the unemployment Eurostates comparing Ireland to Poland here
epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=teilm020&tableSelection=1&plugin=1

I think it may be interesting to have a thread comparing Poland's economy and standard of living to 1) Poland 2) other E.U. ex-communist countries 3) Nonex-communist E.U. countries.

I think it would show that Poland is continuing to grow and is getting better.
And note to the person who quotes me to tell me I am completely wrong, I say 'better' not 'excellent' not better only for the ''BIG BOYS'', I mean better than what it was.

Convex had a good observation about Poland's low PPS though, on the other thread.

I can see interest rates going up globally. There is no other way for them to go, really. But what would the driving factors be for zloty appreciation compared to other currencies? What about when the Euro is adopted? I can see price increases then as price gouging is sure to occur.


I am not sure I would want to be limited to what Big-Agribusiness wants to sell. Surely there must be a willingness to pay what is fair for food?


There is something to be said when a nation can feed itself. I would hate to think of the day when produce is imported from China to feed Poland. It makes no sense. Better to keep the zloty's in your own back yard. Not only that, easier to maintain high food standards.

I disagree. Subsidizing farmers by states or EU is an interesting topic but off topic in this thread.

But if you run an inefficient farm which is supported by subsidies paid for by the consumers, I'm not sure that's making them happy. Let the people who run successful farms buy out these farmers that can't seem to make it.


With cheap greenhouses and efficient farming techniques, there are no major periods of fallow anymore. Grain keeps well, and just about all the vegetables can be grown indoors. Should there be a bad year, prices go up and exisiting grain stocks get more expensive. If the Dutch can do it, why can't Poles?

Keep in mind that European farming investment went on for 40+ years, while Poland was under communist rule. How can you modernize a nations farming infrastructure without subsidies?

How about an farming investment tax credit for those who want to support farmers? There is a nice capitalist idea!

Exactly, farmers selling quality products aren't having problems selling their goods. There is a growing group of consumers willing to pay for quality (myself for instance). The meat that I buy costs about twice as much as the stuff in the stores, I don't mind because I care about what I eat. The farmer that I buy my beef and chicken from is doing well with his "bio" angle.


Absolutely, and the best way to make sure that you can continue feeding yourself is by removing inefficient farms out of the equation. I'm not saying get rid of farming, just modernize it. The biggest problem is that a single farmer can now feed 200 people instead of 10, therefore, the need for less farmers. Just like ship builders in Gdansk, and car makers in Detroit.

The government is already putting an incentive on the table for the kids of the farmers to go to school and learn something that is needed (some network engineers would be nice...).

Standards too, Shawny, spot on. Knowing Poles, they will want to be seen as better than Africans who have been exponents of subsistence and primogeniture for a long time. They can feed themselves with their know-how. They just need the tools and it is as the Chinese proverb says: 'Give a man a fish and he can feed himself for a day. Give him a fishing rod and he can feed himself for a lifetime'. It all depends on how many fish there are in the sea ;) ;) Arable land can be overstretched and farmers need subsidies through things like set-aside.

Bzib, no offence but I see agriculture as a mainstay in Poland and has been throughout the years. My students agree. Old notions had to change through the inception of the CAP and various EU schemes. Look above, I have mentioned the CAP only here.

What is relevant then, Bzib?

Convex, having a broad base helps too, not merely weeding out the weak. That works better in other competitive areas, not in farming. Flexibility is needed with 'weaker' producers.

As for techniques, many can avoid fallow periods, that's true, but Poland's climate is a bit harsher than Holland's.

The same way that modernize the manufacturing base, FDI and investment in efficient enterprises. It doesn't make sense to subsidize a farmer who has 5ha and will never make enough money to support themselves. It's sad, but things change. We don't need 40% of the population in agriculture any more.

Polish GDP growth fell down from almost +7% in 2007 to 1.7% in 2009, It's not much different than average in EU, others have negative growth as most of them had +1-3% before the crisis. We still have some growth not thanks to but despite the government. These clowns made the largest deficit in the history despite selling most of valueable state owned companies and still their only idea to get rid of huge deficit is taking our money from the private pension funds and throw It into ZUS. The President of Adam Smiti center, one of Poland's leading economic think tanks said about recent Tusk's plan related to the public finances: "The PM's specch has a lot in common with literature, especially with Andersen".

"It has also made some badly needed changes in the country’s stifling bureaucracy."

Good joke...

"A new Polish foreign policy has been a success"

Really ? Tusk asked about the "President" of EU said "We will have to wait, there's no chance to make a decision right now", a few houers later that Belgian retard was chosen for that job.

"Germany now claims that it wants its relations with Poland to be as close as they are with France."

Fantastic. Not even one problem in the Polish-German relations has been solved. Gerries give Tusk a candy for being their yes man and that's It.


Yep. Thanks to cheap labor and people being the 2nd longest working in the world only after Koreans. We can't do that forever. Without giantic refors we will naever make It over 70% of average GDP per capita in EU.

As soon as Polish labour becomes too expensive and tax laws are not favourable anymore for the big corporations they'll move on. Remember Ireland!

What's your problem Dog!

I can't see any polish complaints for being under the german wing since admission into the EU.
Don't tell me you suffer anything!

Or is your germanophobia a default mod, no needing any reason at all?
That's the skin head - ugah ugah niveau...

Yes and no. While consumer debt (cash loans..) has been rising and has now reached in proportion of GDP the level seen in Western Europe, mortgages still represent a much smaller proportion of GDP than elsewhere in Europe. All in all, polish consumers are less indebted as a proportion of income compared to western Europeans and far less than Brits or Americans

That is it exactly.

And as far as I am concerned bureaucracy in this country is very very slowly changing for the better.
I have lived and worked in Lithuania and I find it easier here in Poland to deal with offices and administration and less corrupt.


WWII is over, that is at least one problem solved, eh? :)


There are many countries with cheap labour in the enlarged E.U. all of whom have gone in to recession.


What do you mean by second longest working? you work more hours or something?

There are many contributing factors to why Poland did not go in to recession, the fall in the strength of the Zloty (increase exports and internal consumption), the banks lending policies, Billions of Zloty coming back from Polish people working abroad, the money being pumped in to Polish infrastructure (increase in jobs) etc

For all interested in the historical economic truth, I have just added a Reference List (crisismaven.wordpress.com/references) to my economics blog with economic data series, history, bibliographies etc. for students & researchers.

Poland is cheap, and right next door to the biggest economy in Europe. The zloty has been kept cheap over the last couple of years. And apparently, GDP has grown while PPS is fairly stagnant and unemployment is rising. In times of tight budgets, business investments in cheap labor continue. That's why China grew as well :) 10% of GDP available as EU funds might help too...

But it's all going in the right direction. I think that Poles are starting to take out too much debt to finance consumption, and the government isn't doing enough to encourage small business growth (while basically putting on the shin guards for big companies, looking at you Dell, gg). Keeping Poland competitive while raising wages will be the next big challenge.

Since a huge percent of polish workforce has emigrated to countries severely affected by the crisis,it is affected by the crisis as well.Poland was not hit because there are very few immigrants.

I fully agree with SeanBM: the fall of the zloty and the lack or very little of credit spree on the part of the banks here in Poland were major factors in my view. Lithuania, for example, had a fixed rate to the euro, so it renounced to herself the devaluation of her domestic currency.

It is sad that some Polish people comment the Polish economic situation badly just because the Civic Platform is in power. If it were the PiS, their comment on the same situation would have been totally different. But in fact, the present succes is the joint effort of all previous Polish govnts, so if they ridicule one party, they ridicule other parties, PiS included, as well.

Just will not happen, investors are more wiser now about Polish business practices.
Once the football tournament in 2012 finishes, Poland is heading for a fall. ( if not before )


Your Civic platform is only in power because of the crooks who put them there. PIS was doing totally fine. Although those twins presentation didn,t do them justice, they certainly had brains. They were ousted by media power funded by all those afraid of corruption charges. Lets face it, if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.


Foundations of which belonged to PIS.

If they were heading for a fall, it would've happened by now. There's an issue with the budget deficit, but there's a constitutional provision to slash public spending instantly if it becomes a real issue.


Really? That would be why many people were discouraged from investing, and also why many Polish people who were socially mobile threatened to leave the country for good if PiS managed to get re-elected?

Anyway, PiS couldn't keep a stable coalition, so they were booted out. Their problem.


Hahaha. What did PiS do economically, apart from waste money on socialist initatives such as giving every mother 1000zl?

As I said, crooks with something to hide.


Again, not the case, ousted by the mafia.


Were they even given a chance ?
No, because the minute they started pressing on someones toes, again the mafia took them out.


Every day there is someone brought before commissions for some dirty dealing or other. So dont hold your breath, it can happen any time.

Really? So a vast swathe of young, educated, socially mobile people were crooks?


No. Ousted by their own inability to form a stable coalition. If I recall rightly, it was Jaroslaw's decision to call an election - they had the largest amount of seats in the Sejm and could have attempted to go it alone (look at Scotland for what is considered to be a succesful minority government), but they chose to try and win a fresh mandate in an election.

I'm really not sure how the Media forced him to call a fresh election.


If the media was so powerful, why did the disaster that was AWS and the SLD not get eliminated from power before their mandate expired?


What has that got to do with the fall of the country?

(you might want to also explain why Lech Kaczynski's approval ratings only go up when he doesn't talk in public)

Pointless really, you have to crack open an egg to see whats inside.

Jarosław acted on the mafia's advice who knew the PiS would loose the election to the Civic Platform; that is how Jarosław and company were ousted by the mafia (life according to Think Twice).

I think the answer is quite clear if you live in Poland, things ARE becoming better and better and life certainly has changed in the past 2 years, massively changed in the past 5 years, and light years ahead from 10 years ago... IF you hold a consumerist/materialistic economy something "better". I do.

if you call corruption and street violence better, what about the weather, locked in a room for 4 months of the year and dreaming for a sunny day, no thanks.

Learn to read, Troll.

Better than it was, and probably better than the Chav Haven you call home.