What will drive Poland after 2020 - when Eu funding dries up?

Oh naughty Harry, kettle callng pot black.

Anyway I just realized this has gone off topic now.

Yes 2020 no more EU money, no need for Poland to adopt the Euro or remain in the EU.

Interesting decision to be made by the next Polish government.

How is Poland supposed to help EU on that matter?

For one thing it's supposed to go along with Merkel's kabuki play about "resettling" migrants in other countries.

For the other it's supposd to fork out money - almost the entire refuge "crisis" is a financial con - "non-profit" groups being paid to import people into Europe (that mosty have no chance of any kind of life with dignity there) and then they get paid to "help" them once they're in situ.

It's a modern version of slavery - selling people for money and no one who supports it has the moral high ground.

Exactly the same as all EU countries obligations towards Poland incase of a massive migration crisis in Ukraine, or an invasion of Poland the EU is required to defend and provide financial support.

Do US states in the south consider it slavery to go to war after the attack on New York?

provide financial support for human trafficking? in what universe does this make moral sense?

Pointing out that you are talking utter bollocks when you talking utter bollocks is not personal abuse.


I think the idea is supposed to be that EU member states do whatever they can best do to help other member states. In the case of Poland, a country which has spare housing for well over a million people due to Poles moving to other EU member states, and country which has within living memory seen millions of its own citizens helped as refugees from and given legal worker status as economic migrants, it's a real head-scratcher as to what Poland can best do to help and should do, isn't it?

Tell that to Germany, regarding Greece.


Define "spare housing". Is it sitting empty or is it being used by the owners occasionally. And of course, housing is just the first step, then there is furnishing and food and possibly education and healthcare etc etc etc. Poland can't afford a decent social safety net for its own citizens and you want it to prioritize a million new residents over citizens?


Which is why Poland is ready to help in cases of real need, rather than manufactured human trafficking need. Need I remind you that Poland has already tried helping real Syrian refugees including free housing and education and they almost all ran off to Germany without so much as a shukran or see ya later?


Where? There is no migration within the EU, there is the free movement of citizens. You're mixing apples and bricks.

There is no refugee crisis apart from Syria (and most of them are in Turkey and neighboring countries), a very large majority of "refugees" seeking "asylum" in Europe now are fleeing the bad governments created by their own bad cultures that they will do their best to import to Europe. Aiding in that process is neither moral nor humane.

There was no automatic freedom of movement for the new accession states when they joined the EU in 2004. Ireland, Sweden and the UK were the only three EU members to open their borders in 2004 allowing Poles and others to work legally.

Because eternal bad neighbors Germany and France did everything to keep them out of the labor market.

That was a temporary aberration (from mass producers of European aberrations).

Poland joying the EU was an aberration. (you know like in join and joy - as in an enthusiastic union)

What will drive Poland after 2020 - when Eu funding dries up?

Well, after bag with money depletes, I think that EU always can install some ``anti-something`` regime in Poland and that way tries to continue game and at the same time keep Poles under control by encouraging nationalism, fascism and any kind of extremism. Later, after condom is used, EU always can continue game by criticizing Poland exactly because of any extremism. Oh, EU leading powers knows to control. Don`t underestimate them Poles.

According to the leader of both Poland and Ukraine, the number is in excess off 1,000,000 ukrainian nationals who have arrived in Poland since the outbreak of the war. Poland describes the new arrivals as refugees, while Ukraine prefers the lesser term of economic migrants, the OP's figure of 600,000 is a low ball.Those opposing have absolutely no knowledge of the internal relations, between Poland and Ukraine.

As Parisian has mentioned my figure of 600.000 Ukrainians in Poland since the Ukrainian civil war began is on the lower side. In January 2016 the Ukrainian Embassy in Warsaw claimed there are around 500,000 Ukrainians with permanent status in Poland,although the real figure is probably closer to 1,000,000 ( one million). As Harry would have you believe all Ukrainians apply for refugee status which is b"llox, Ukrainians take the easier option of applying for temporary migration - the number of declarations which enable an individual to take up a temporary job in Poland, issued to Ukrainians in the first half of 2015, was a staggering 400,000. CMS, if you are spending lots of time at your ' Dzalka' maybe those cars belong to other rich Warszawiaks or well known fact that since the inception of the current governments + 500 funds, car leasing numbers have exploded, Car dealers are creating the next subprime in Poland by giving credit to buy cars based on successful + 500 applications. As a final, since 2004 and the exodus of economic migrants from Poland to richer countries, Poland has received annually billions of Euros in remittances from overseas workers, this has in part helped drive the economy and pay for much of the new builds and domestic consumption. This will hopefully continue after 2020 if the Kleptocrats in Brussels agree on a sensible opt out option for the UK.

Harry - Let me help you answer that: Poland shouldn't be able to, and part of the price Poland will pay for its disgraceful actions regarding this will be far less EU funding after 2020 (and quite possibly before). Conjecture Harry, everyone knows EU funds will have peaked at 2020. Poland is far more likely to receive less funding due to the UK exiting the EU. As for Syrian refugees allow their Shia and Sunni brothers to offer them safe harbour. Poland is doing a sterling job, providing the Ukrainians with access to work and safer living conditions, a million people according to the Ukrainian Embassy in Warsaw.

The 1m Ukranians claim was made by Szydlo in a speech but subsequently pulled to pieces by the Polish press - the probable number is around 500k. but the number of asylum seekers is tiny - round about 5000. And by the way, she is not really the leader of Poland.

Given that you spend so much time in Poland After2020, you will know that you can tell a car's hometown in a blink of an eye from its plates. These are locally owned cars - in my village out of 500 homes I guess around 5 are second homes. And I am not from Warsaw.

But I don't need superficial evidence like car plates - an easier number is the amount I need to pay to keep farm workers - its now 15 zloty an hour and more if you want someone who can drive - i can remember paying 8 zloty about 10 years ago and having people come and offer to work for 5.

You are, remarkably, right about one thing - that much money comes from foreign remittances. But that is surely a good effect of the EU ? People that used to have to swim accross the Oder on a lilo can now work legally, change money and export it legally and with far lower middleman costs, learn new skills and have a wider choice of careers. i spent some time growing up in North Carolina - when I go there now many of my old friends are working in DC or in NYC - surely that is just the same concept ?

If you just state you are opposed to the EU for ideological reasons then that would be an easier case to make than saying it is materially bad for Poles.

The boom in car leasing is not the fault of the car producers (why would they ask where the money comes from ?), the leasing companies are mostly Polish banks and could be easily reined in by the govt of the KNF if needed - in fact two of the largest are now owned by the govt. If the govt wants to deflate that boom then it could do so at a stroke of Kaczynski's pen and say the 500 zloty is paid in food stamps or clothes stamps, or that there is an earnings limit - neither will happen as it is the bedrock of the govts support - so the kids it is intended to help can enjoy paying for it in 2040.

How is your Brexit going ? I see the other 27 countries were too busy talking about other things last night but it did get 20 minutes over the brandy. When is that letter going to come ?

look here - polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/spoleczenstwo/1664626,1,milion-ukraincow-w-polsce-kim-sa-gdzie-pracuja.read - you don't believe Polityka???

CMS, each European country has its own language/s, culture and history, its embedded in our every fibre its our identity. Most of us are against a federalist Europe ( Lisbon treaty), we want to remain part of the EU trade system, we want devolution from Brussels its does not have to be max devolution,we want local and regional self government. There could never be a united states of Europe it was a failed project, each country is defined by the the past. When the Brits voted in favour of Brexit they voted with their hearts for change, the yes vote has set a movement across many countries in Europe, many Europeans feel empowered by the Yes vote. As for the one million Ukrainians in Poland, how would the farming sector survive without the ukrainians,it is criminal the prices set by the mostly dutch controlled buyers of fruits on the Polish market. When did car dealers become car manufacturers, as for car manufacturers I read the Germans have pushed a deal through the EU whereby we Europeans will be driving electric cars by 2030. Now that's a shot in the arm for the German car industry. Hows your federalist man in Brussels doing in his new Palace? did he not agree that the Lisbon treaty was the way forward for a closer Europe, he certainly is reaping the rewards in his new Palace.

More nonsense - this was a resoultion with no legal force even in Germany and it does not affect the rest of the EU. But maybe its worth debating - might be useful if we were less reliant on Putin and Iran for oil ?

Any evidence for your ridiculous claim about a Dutch cartel controlling fruit prices ? Have you any experience of that ?

And why don't you register ? Its fine for unregistered posters to ask how to buy a train ticket or look for a bigos recipe, but why should they be able to post ad infinitum in order to spread their unsubstantiated views ?

CMS, don't believe everything you find on your first google search... Norway was the first to ban cars fueled by petrol or diesel by 2025, several other countries in Europe are formulating similar programs to phase out fuel-powered transportation. Moreover, sources close to the European Parliament say that once multiple member states pass such a ban as is expected in 2016/17, the European Union will attempt to enforce these rules throughout its territory. The Germans have the green lobbyists in operation, any EU ban on cars fueled by petrol or diesel would be a big boost for the German car manufacturers, another stealth tax to boost the German economy... There have been Dutch fruit buying groups in Poland since the early 1990's under different guises, offering a pittance for product to farmers, the vast majority of farmers have very small holdings in comparison to farmers further west therefore are unable to compete. Take a company Innocent drinks a UK company, buys its pulp from a dutch supplier, who buy fruit from the Polish market, innocent drinks then sells its products on the Polish market as one of the more expensive fruit drinks. The largest pulp suppliers in Europe are in the Netherlands, they are the backbone of the fruit drinks market. If the best you can do to try and discredit me, to claim as an unregistered poster my point of view,holds no water - its shows how thin skinned you are. I would suggest the reason you may be pro EU and anti PIS, is purely self serving you have claimed EU funds to further your business activities and you continue to receive EU subsidies as a farmer,as a farmer you may also be paying the lowest tax threshold available in Poland. If the aforementioned is actual you could be considered an opportunist and there lays the reason for you supporting the 'EU Golden pig'.

and nobody buys it here - ok hardly anybody

If one company's business model operates in that way, you can be sure many other fruit juice companies are the same. .

Again you are incorrect. You could write 1000 posts you will never find an accurate statistic showing that Poland or indeed any section of Polish society is worse off since 2004. And I don't really care if you register or not - I am too busy having a normal life working in poland and looking after my Polish kids.

Re electric cars - that was not the first hit in google, because the first few pages of hits are loonies and conspiracy theorists. But in fact it seems that only one country has mandated a ban - Norway, which is not even in the EU. But in any case a debate should happen - its cheaper, greener and we won't have to kiss the ass of the Saudis any more.

In 13 years of farming commercially I have never encountered Dutch buying groups - some German, some French but mostly Polish. There is no mention of these groups in the official reports from the Ministry of Agriculture that we get each year. I dont ever remember seeing Innocent smoothies in Poland - only place I see them in fact is at a ruinous price in London. They might be here but certainly not where I shop in Biedronka and Lidl.

Yes I get some EU subsidies, most of which I have reinvested but in any case they are far less than the tax I pay and no I am sadly not in the lowest tax bracket. I pay substantial tax here, most of which the current morons have used as election kielbasa.

The only objections you can rationally raise about the EU are that each country has its own culture. Could you be specific about which parts of Polish culture are under threat ? Will they ban grilling sausages and fighting off mosquitoes ? Or can I no longer listen to Rubinstein playing Chopin ? Can I still take a half litre to the forest and pick kurki ? Or swig a can of Warka while I watch the speedway ? There are no EU laws about any of those things.

What the EU does have rules about is rule of law, independent judiciary, state ownership, fiscal responsibility - and the Polish people clearly voted for those in 2004. Britain had a chance to prove there are better ideas than the EU but so far they are in a terrible negotiating position - hence they are too scared to send that letter.

After 2020? EU is dead horse already

Yes, and outside the EU it seems like Serbia is thriving. Your Croat and Slovenian neighbors must look at you with envy

@CMS - Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU), it is closely associated with the Union through its membership in the European Economic Area (EEA), in the context of being a European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member, in this respect any ban on petrol and diesel powered cars by 2030 in the EU would be taken up by Norway. Norway was also forced to take syrian refugees as part of the EU relocation scheme. If you consider the prices of Innocent drinks in London ruinous I would suggest you look at other sources of income. The Polish grown Senga Sengana strawberry are included in many of the smoothies by Innocent. I guess that little bit of info is not featured in the report you receive from the Ministry of Agriculture. As a recipient of annual EU subsidies I understand your pro EU stand, they pay part of your business income... CMS,you are better PR for EU than a Monnet professor. As a final CMS, on your tax position as a farmer - as from 2014 under PO all farmers in Poland became subject to income tax (rural tax) Poland is the country with the most favorable tax system of farmers in the EU. Farmers do not pay tax on their agricultural income, but only the "rural tax" for their agricultural land. In 2015 this tax was 153.52 Polish Zloty/ha (about 3.4 euro/ha). Yet you complain...

CMS - Again you are incorrect. You could write 1000 posts you will never find an accurate statistic showing that Poland or indeed any section of Polish society is worse off since 2004. You are not Polish and should respect your adopted country and its democratically elected government, PO the previous government didn't live up to its reputation as a "liberal civic platform," turning instead to neo-liberal economic policies that ended up not reaching enough people in the middle of society, essentially passing by the losers of Poland's transformation program.

The previous government took care of its own - businessmen and the wealthy.

There is no "middle society" in Poland. There is only 99.9 % bottom feeders and 0.1 % criminal elite who take turns governing a country which has only ever been pseudo democratic. There are no accurate statistics in Poland for anything. The government does a stellar job of keeping it that way.

I think that Poland needs to declare military neutrality. It would immediately boost Poland`s economy.


actually, sane people there looks with envy at Serbia.

Again, totally unsubstantiated and out of touch with reality. There is a growing middle class and they have done very well since 2004 - and better than their neighbors in Hungary and Czech. Take any measure of middle class quality of life and see how it has increased - home ownership, car ownership, health levels, foreign holidays, number if internet connections, savings, spending on lesiure.

The minimum wage in 2004 was about 700 zloty - it is now 2000. Do you have any evidence that the wealth of the richest 38.000 people in Poland has increased 3x in that period ? Because that has probably not happened

Of course the EU has deep flaws, but like most anti EU people you offer no better solution and no concrete arguments about why the EU is bad compared to other systems - I can offer 3 reasons why it is good - it makes us richer, makes us more secure and provides more opportunities for our children

As for respecting Poland well I do very much. I also am basically a conservatice person and no lover of PO. You will not find me drawn into most of the arguments here about local politics. i did have some respect for the current government but what I had was lost at the time they started digging up dead bodies. That showed that we are dealing with something more than semantic differenćes about tax and the free press.

CMS, anyone who bought real estate in 2003/4 has made a multiple of at least X 2.5.Now someone who bought agricultural land has made singnificantly more.