Why is Poland developing so slowly or in the wrong direction? Who is responsible ?

Yes.


It would make the central government directly accountable to the people.

Oh please...

The USA would stop working if not even their borders or budget were secure long term.


There is no central government right now (and won't be for a long time to come).
The individual governments are directly accountable to their people...they vote for them (or not).

The central government would have never outgrown it's mandate. No one leaves a union that works.


Sure there is. There is a central rule making body. Even if every Polish MEP voted against a law on behalf of their citizens, it would still be applied to all Polish citizens.

Opinion differs what "working" means...

And no, no union will work if there can't be any longterm planning made..no country can work that way.

It's also abit of "in good times and in bad times". If you are only in for the support funds and for the good times you should really rethink the EU. But then nobody will be there for you when you enter bad times alone, on your own!

And what the scope of such a union is when the people first sign up.


There are already national structures in place. Poland doesn't need a second level of government creating laws that are completely disconnected from the populace. It's already difficult enough to do the research on a national level, introducing a second level of law makers is superfluous and distances those making the laws even further away from the people they are making those laws to control in one way or another.

Yeah...well...if the majority wishes so they should get the hell out....and take the Brits with you.
I have enough of you nay sayers and naggers, you grate on all peoples nerves....so make a cut and get out!

There are alot of people who think the enlargement was an error...if you think you will fare better on your own, please do! And we can keep the Billions for ourselves...

That's what I mean. The people were sold:

Free movement of people and goods
Open borders

That sounds great. The EU is suffering from scope creep.


Again, that's what I'm getting at. Bilateral free trade agreements + agreements on freedom of movement. That should be all a country needs in order to gain maximum benefit out of the EU without having to give up any bit of sovereignty.

If the EU for you is only about "gain maximum benefit" out of it you better leave immediately. Nobody needs or wants sluggards in a union who are not interested in making things work!

What it the union ultimately about? Maximum mutual benefit for member states. If it is anything else, then it's a complete failure.

When you say "Make it work", what is the goal of the Union?

It's a pot, open for all members, but to being able to take something out of it it needs to be filled by the members first.

The pot will go empty soon when every member only thinks about his "maximum benefit" of taking out and not putting something back in.

And as the crisis has shown independent economical policies are not the way to go...it's a reason for this mess we are in.

People have to decide where they want to go. I think there will be a split between those who want closer economical and later political union and those who don't.

Honestly I wish for it...I can't stand all this griping and whining anymore about losing your holy "independence" and entering a horrible eternity under the EU whip"!

I belief those countries who will end up in a core-EU with a much closer union will be most successful, compared to those who prefer to muddle along alone.

Or as we in Germany say so nice: "Macht doch euren Scheiß alleine!"

Is that "Make your way alone"? Or "Make your own way"?

Erm...yes...the polite version! ;)

Brussels knows best? Why would you say that? How has EU economic policy been a success when some of the oldest EU members are on the brink of collapse? It's interesting to note that the Western European countries which aren't EU members aren't having too many fiscal problems.

The problem with the EU is that Western Europe feels that they are owed something by Eastern Europe and vice versa. Do you think that Greece and Ireland are in a stronger position by not being able to devalue their currency? As a whole, do you think that Polish dairy farmers are better off now that they get to compete against heavily subsidized French dairy farmers? Those are ridiculous conclusions. There are arguments to be made about immediate gains, everyone loves a handout, but the ramifications of those handouts ripple on. You end up with economies in which sectors are wholly dependent on handouts, and true competition is never allowed to emerge. Is the average Pole doing better than they were 10 years ago? Of course, but then again so is the average Norwegian, Turk, Croatian, Albanian... And the people of those countries have no "debts" to EU benefactors, nor are they bound to EU laws.

Yeah...the Swiss has always their banks to fall back to, Norway has it's oil....and Poland has?


"Brüssel" knows nothing! In case you are not aware of it but Brüssel is not much more than the meeting place of a plethora of egos. Where more often than not only the most tiniest common agreement can be subscribed to because a union of 27 so different countries is harder to lead than a sack of fleas.

In the new core-EU the countries know what they want and that they are compatible with each other in their visions, cultures, economies and outlooks.

Only those who fit in will be in!

You are right in that way that you will never made Greece to an industrial competitor...you can pump as much money as you want into an agrarian culture but it won't help much.

That's where the reality destroys the illusion.

The other alternative were that of a permanent transfer union as every country is more or less. Germany has it's Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the US has it's Iowa, northern Italy has it's South etc..

Every country/union has not so developed territories the richer ones have to pay for. That is a given but that can only work if it's a real union/country...not something in the middle as the EU now is.

So I repeat, the EU will split...Poland has to think about where they want to be.


Nobody forces Poland to take the help, you know?
Somehow you make it sound as if the support is to blame that Poles are not living better than the Norwegian, the Turk, the Croatian or the Albanian....

Sometimes I wonder about the ways your thoughts wander! ;)

Industry. Remember, individual investors are responsible for the factories in Germany, not bureaucrats.


There you have the problem. Southern Italy is a classic example. Instead of using the resources it has available, it is dependent on aid from the North. No incentive to actually develop anything. Wealth transfer only works if the society develops at the same pace. Sustainable long term wealth generation on the other hand, is fairly natural as a result of investment due to favorable business climates.


Indeed, no one rejects a handout. BUT, handouts are always to the detriment of someone else. Basic Capitalism vs. Marxism.

The problem is they don't have the resources nor the industry of the north...and never will have.

You won't make a silicon valley out of Iowa either...the richest country on Earth didn't manage to make all of it's states to rich ones...alot suck and need support from the richer ones.

That's the reality and there is not much we can do about it, outside of becoming a real union, a United States of Europe.

Those who don't want that better leave...or we split...whatever comes first!
Because going on as it is won't work.


These are not given as handouts nor taken as handouts....they are investments and their usage is supervised by an EU-commission. Investments for a better future for all of us, after all you are supposed to take up your duties, being able to pay your share into the common pot soon.

Aren't they loans that have to be paid back?

You won't make it silicon valley based on central planning, I agree with you there. The idea that you're promoting is that someone else knows what's best for those areas, and that locals will remain incompetent to advance themselves. I just don't believe that to be true. Again, I think that if you simply had freedom of movement of goods and people, you'd have a much better effect than the current EU.

Uh, the III RP is doing very well for itself - it's somehow managed to transform a country that was all about heavy industry and managed to almost totally reinvent itself as a place of light manufacturing and technology. The fact that it's now stealing R&D jobs from the UK says a hell of a lot for how far this country has came.

Compared to the nationalist, backwards II RP, it's a no brainer.


Poland is well on the way to reaching parity with Western countries - bearing in mind that people were working on construction sites for $100 a month about 16 years ago, it's a hell of an achievement. It's going to take a long time yet, and it will be painful on the way - but there is absolutely no reason why Poland can't be equal to Greece or Portugal within the next 15 years.

20% voting against EU membership - that means people voted 4:1 in favour of membership. I'd say in any democratic country, that's a clear mandate for membership.


I just don't think it's that much of a big deal to people to make it worth that much hassle. People talk about it a lot, but look at UKIP in the UK. They've delivered two rather excellent results in the European elections, yet they get hammered in the local and national elections.

Well..that's the way the countries work. There is always someone else from Berlin, Rome, Paris, Warsaw, Washington who plans things ahead of the locals.

Don't make it a mean EU-communism thingie.

The US is the richest country on earth and had nearly a century on the top time to develop their counties...but still a few rich ones bear alot of poor ones. And you won't accuse the US of commie central planning, won't you!

The EU did quite well in the same time...rebuilding a destroyed continent and spreading wealth and democracy between their members. There is no country worse off than before membership.

We can't have been so bad!

PS: Thank you again for the banking and credit-crisis!

That's fair enough. I have no personal problems with the EU to be quite honest. I know how and what to work. Those folks at the bottom of the chain are the ones that have to worry about the long term. All things being equal, everyone has an equal share of the debt, and I'm in a much better position to weather any storms that might come from inane legislation and fiscal policies. Like I said, no sweat off my back...


I'm not making central planning a Communism thing, it is a Communism thing.


The same can be said of nearly every country.


And was that a result of central planning, or a loose beneficial union?

There will always be someone quick to call communism when a lot of what gets "given" are actually loans that need repaying. Unless a country defaults, the bank gets paid with interest. Sound like capitalism to me.

You can thank Federal regulation for that. Tell me which state was responsible for that? The SEC isn't a local entity, neither is the Federal Reserve. States aren't trillions in the hole to foreign countries..


Poland was given grants, in addition to loans. The large part of the aid was in the form of grants. That's wealth transfer.

Which one?

Do you really think Europe would be better off without the EU?

With the biggest financial deficite ever among all countries in the world....no wealth there.


Agreed. So what to do with EU? According to financial experts, the world finance system is again approaching similar disaster we had already, but this time noone will bail out the ones with bigger problems.

Back to square one? Everyone for himself? Most likely...


Not only commies plan central... ;-)

Govt does tend to give both.

The ones I mentioned for starters. Throw in all of Asia (barring Japan), South America, the Middle East...hell, just about every country except those in sub saharan Africa...and even most of those countries are doing better than they did 10 years ago.


I think the principals (and implementation) of free trade and free movement are great. I don't like how the scope of the EU has grown.

And...say...how did they rebuild and helped to spread wealth and democracy in Europe?


I accept that.

That's why it would be better if those who want even more union split with those who have already enough.
Or else we enter a century full of griping, whining, sniping, feet dragging and finger pointing.

We so don't need that!

Through private investment


The point is reform. Clawing back power is difficult once it has been given away.

The point is that the EU is on a crossroad.

As the crisis has shown we can't go on without unifying economical policies...that means giving up some political/economical power from the different governments...many don't want that - many others want that. So....