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Coronavirus in Poland


jon357 67 | 16,654
8 May 2021 #6,391
So you don't trust politicians eithe

Not that particular one, given that he's a habitually lying careerist with a repellant (the a is btw correct) set of expressed opinions, the only merits of which being that they change frequently. Fortunately his ability to do damage is somewhat constrained by the system of government, despite him packing the upper house with cranks, loons and oddballs.

The response to Covid however, which thank God was largely led by science, is one thing that the current administration have largely got right, despite there being more that they could do in certain areas (compensation for businesses, support for individuals and a credit holiday for those whose incomes have ceased) and less that they could do in certain other areas (wotsisname handing out dodgy and sleazy contracts to personal friends, Cummings driving hundreds of miles to "test eyesight" during the height of the first lockdown and Johnson's mistress Carrie Symonds (know to staff as Princess Nutnut) spending tens thousands on wallpaper at the No.11 flat since the expensive stuff put up by her was "too middle class".
mafketis 25 | 9,300
8 May 2021 #6,392
one thing that the current administration have largely got right

It can be hard to realize that so much was lost for no good reason.... that's why Nigerian 401 letters are effective when someone bites and sends that first money....

But... for nothing. All the businesses and livelihoods gone.... irreversible damage to young children done..... for nothing.

It was a _really_ bad flu which was no danger to the vast majority of the population kept alive by incompetent responses and former democracies turned into despotic hellpits (see Canada).

I know that's hard to accept and admit.... but it's true.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
8 May 2021 #6,393
which thank God was largely led by science,

Fauci: masks are useless. Fauci: masks are useful. That science?
How about 6 feet. Have you seen the science and the report that came up with 6 feet instead of 16? Your scientists just told us that the distance does not really matter and that you can get infected from a distance much greater than 6 feet.

How does it feel to be a naive and trusting bootlicker? I have never been one so I am curious.

All the businesses and livelihoods gone.... irreversible damage to young children done..... for nothing.

Hey, maf, I really appreciate your posts. There are moments here when I wonder where have all the sane people gone.
Tacitus 2 | 1,285
8 May 2021 #6,394
why didn't help them instead

Germany took in many patients from other European countries when there were no ICU left for them.

but your death rate is still 6 times higher than India's.

Those who died were still given the best possible care, none of them died easily preventable deaths because there were no beds or oxygen availabe. And given the current projectory, it is very likely that India will overtake Germany sooner rather later (it might be already close since deaths are likely underreported).
jon357 67 | 16,654
8 May 2021 #6,395
so much was lost for no good reason.

It's sad, and it's fvcked up a lot of lives (including, to a point, mine, at least temporarily) however restrictions were the last thing that any country wanted.

It was a _really_ bad flu

Influenza is a nasty illness. This is a novel virus which is even more unpredictable; hence the unpoleasant precautions.

Those who died were still given the best possible care

Quite. I doubt that in Germany many people died on the street outside the hospital for want of oxygen, as is happening in India and Nepal right now.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
8 May 2021 #6,396
This is a novel virus

Every virus is novel. We can't afford lock the world down every time a novel virus shows up at the door.
jon357 67 | 16,654
8 May 2021 #6,397
I wonder why it thinks that "every virus is novel". Influenza has been around for centuries and is still a killer.

Those viruses that emerged as novel viruses during the 50s, 60s and 70s like Marburg, Ebola, HIV and Dengue are very serious, in a couple of those cases there have been deadly mutations and the emergence of deadlier ones are expected, feared, and heavily monitored by the UN.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,398
heavily monitored by the UN.

You mean the corrupt Chinese agency aka WHO? Or are those the good guys, too?
Tacitus 2 | 1,285
9 May 2021 #6,399
We can't afford lock the world down every time

Not every single time, but whenever we face a virus that contageous and deadly. Which thankfully doesn't happen that often.

The alternative would have been to let our health care systems collapse. Which means that not only people would have died due to Covid, but also other diseases and injuries which we would not have been able to treat.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,400
Not every single time, but whenever we face a virus that contagious and deadly...

You don't know if it's deadly until later. Even this one killed only 6% of the official body count that died while otherwise healthy. That's according to the CDC. You trust the CDC, don't you.

Counting people with four or so underlying conditions - obese diabetics with high blood pressure or cancer - or over 80 as the victims of covid is insanity if it is used to justify lockdowns.

Safetism at all costs is unsustainable as a policy and is practiced by the ruling mob only to avoid being accused of "doing nothing while people died".
jon357 67 | 16,654
9 May 2021 #6,401
but whenever we face a virus that contagious and deadly.

Exactly. It's not the first, won't be the last, nor is it "the big one". Nevertheless, it is contagious and deadly, hence the precautions.

Nobody likes lockdowns, however they'd dislike a Brazil situation even more.

The alternative would have been to let our health care systems collapse

This is also correct. It's not just the NHS or Polish medical system that would have collapsed though; a densely-populated and developed society involves a whole matrix of logistics, services, infrastructure that all depend/depends on the people who work in it/them to be actually well enough to turn up to work, get the food delivered to the shops, keep the shops open, get the kids taught, wipe the geriatrics' arses, keep prisoners, long-term psychiatric inpatients fed and watered, put out the fires, arrest the bad guys, get the trains, trams and buses driven, keep the power stations and gas pipes operated, the oil/gas rigs extracting, and keep the hospitals open.

Modern urban society has its vulnerabilities. Governments are aware of this, and the better organised ones have contingencies. Not contingencies to prevent things breaking down, but contingencies to prevent everything breaking down at the same time. The idea that most people are three meals away from rioting and violence is only a slight exaggeration.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 766
9 May 2021 #6,402
@jon357
Influenza changes every year. Which is why vaccines for it change every year. It is "novel" and every virus is "novel". All the lockdowns were completely useless.

Lets get it straight. This was not about keeping people alive. The lockdowns were about keeping the hospitals from getting overwhelmed. Thats it and there is a big difference. Everyone knew thousands would die no matter what happened or what was done. The governments simply couldn't have hospitals over flowing because the governments do not have them prepared for emergencies.

People are going to continue dying. Even once nearly everyone is vaccinated. The death rates will slow and lower that's it. There is no magic pill. The economic destruction will take years to recover from. Some people have lost everything for nothing. This is what needs to be in the press. But that doesn't fit the narrative the government wants now. Its all about vaccines and how its getting better, while people try to deal with the mess the government created. The hospitals will empty and the bankruptcy courts will fill, and the unemployment lines will get longer.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,403
Influenza changes every year. Which is why vaccines for it change every year.

I wonder why it thinks that "every virus is novel"

That's why.

The death rates will slow and lower that's it.

Averaged over a decade, the number of deaths will be the same. The old who died in 2020, will not die in 2021. The virus merely sped it up.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,404
Deaths per million:

Palestine - 644
Israel - 693

A third-world sh*ithole vs a modern state with the first-world medical care - and the sh*ithole wins.

The only explanation is that the virus doesn't give a damn about how rich and advanced the place is. It goes no killing marginal people just the same.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 766
9 May 2021 #6,405
I am no longer wearing a mask outside. I had the virus, and got the vaccine. I simply wont comply with the craziness of these order any more. The looks I get from some people are hilarious. Walking through planty last night, and my better half says, "a week from now makes total sense to not wear a mask, but right now its really dangerous outside" sarcasm font.

While in the minority now, more and more people in Krakow are not wearing masks, and Police are doing nothing. I think they are tired of this BS as well.

The good news is that while walking around rynek, there were signs of life in some of the places that have been closed. Some restaurants are clearly preparing for outdoor dining beginning in a week. The bad news, there were also more places that have been emptied and "for rent" signs hung in the windows.
Tacitus 2 | 1,285
9 May 2021 #6,406
The lockdowns were about keeping the hospitals from getting overwhelmed.

Which keeps people alive.
johnny reb 30 | 5,187
9 May 2021 #6,407
I am no longer wearing a mask outside.

YES POLAM !
You have repeated that twenty times now.
We got it, you aren't going to wear a muzzle anymore.
Are you trying to convince us not to wear ours either just because you don't ?
Self centered people insist on speeding down the highway too without giving regard to others.
Well I am going to wear my mask all summer even when I go water skiing, swimming or having sex.
mafketis 25 | 9,300
9 May 2021 #6,408
Sunny Sunday numbers (back to normal after long holiday weekend) to help inform debate (rather than the usual collection of emotional outbursts)

percent of positive test results: 7.38 % (of 52,150 tests ... the new normal is clearly less than 10%)

hospital admissions: -999 (fifth day of negative numbers)

deaths: 147 (almost 50 less than the last 'normal' Sunday two weeks ago)

from the previous day*: 7 day moving average of daily deaths: 271 (down 1 from yesterday)

*the source I use is a day behind and I'm too lazy to calculate on my own
johnny reb 30 | 5,187
9 May 2021 #6,409
(rather than the usual collection of emotional outbursts)

It may be the ho hum repetition that triggers the sanity of normal people that causes these emotional outbursts.
Maybe if you were to limit the Covid stats of Poland, to inform and debate, to once a week you could avoid causing these emotional outbursts by others.

Just saying.......
Alien
9 May 2021 #6,410
I work with people face to face on short distance. I had usual flu-like symptoms every few weeks. Since 1 year i wear the mask and glowes on work and had no symptoms anywhere. I know i will do it forever. This is my private lesson from corona.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 766
9 May 2021 #6,411
@johnny reb
That's your choice and I respect it. People here, Poland, should have had the choice, that those in the USA have had for a while, to wear or not to wear a mask. The point is that people in Poland have been given no choice. Business in Poland, has really been at a standstill for 7 months. That can't be said for the USA.

Choice, is what every person should have had from the very beginning. Choice, that governments made to underfund and underprepare, when we tax payers pay for those preparations, and pay their salaries. The government in Poland is at fault, and its not just PiS, it is the ones that came before them as well. The hospitals here are in some cases using beds from the Korean war era. Doctors are severely underpaid. This is the fault of government.

Now, when tax payers pay for all this, and get ready for a ton of new taxes, we have to pay for governments repeated failures. Much the same in the USA.

Johnny, I am sorry you had a difficult time with COVID. I have 4 people I know who died. That said, there is no way a whole society should stop to save one tenth of one percent. Yes I know its harsh. Life is hard.
johnny reb 30 | 5,187
9 May 2021 #6,412
@PolAm

Business in Poland, has really been at a standstill for 7 months.

As as it has been world wide BECAUSE the healthcare system was over whelmed and there was no other way to deal with it.
Remember at the get go....Italy.....and now India ?

we have to pay for governments repeated failures.

They did the best they could have done at the time under the circumstances of the unknown.

there is no way a whole society should stop to save one tenth of one percent.

Actually it was more like 1% but who's counting.
The point is they closed down to hold those figures down.
Can you imagine what they would have been if they hadn't ?
You really do need to quit looking at this in such a selfish manner as we were/are in this all together.
PolAm, I am happy you only had a mild case but a lot of people weren't so lucky.
Yes, I know it was harsh for businesses but life is hard and it is only getting harder.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,413
The deaths worth lamenting over are under 80 without underlying conditions. Then, according to the CDC, it's down to 6% of the numbers as published.
To lock down the country because some got themselves fat is insanity. We don't close the roads because some drink, drive, and die or kill others.
johnny reb 30 | 5,187
9 May 2021 #6,414
because some got themselves fat

Oh stop with your degrading b.s. Mr. Atlas.!
How many times do you have to repeat yourself that it is only fat people that die from Covid.
I have three friends that were all fit as a fiddle with no underlying causes and under 65 that died from Covid.
Just because you are a skinny withering specimen doesn't mean someone carrying 20 pounds extra isn't in three times the shape that you are and could kick your ass all the way down the street and back.

In fact I have a logging buddy who is 80 years old and at least 40 pounds over weight that I will bet $5000 could rub your nose in the mud in less then a minute.

The Lord humbles people for boasting and being you are old and have a low immune system you are a prime candidate to die from Covid.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 766
9 May 2021 #6,416
@johnny reb
I have to disagree. We are not in this together. This is survival of the fittest. Those dying are a majority that are close to death already, a majority not entirely. My responsibility is my family, and my employee's. Not my neighbor who has lived a full life at 85, who has nothing at risk any more. Harsh I know. It is also not the 50 yr old who is obese, diabetic, and smoking.

If one death keeps 100 people from committing suicide, then that death is just a cost of society moving forward. If another death allows for 10 families to save their life savings or business then again, that's just part of life.

When people are financially wiped out because government is unprepared to take care of those who are at risk, then government has failed and they are not deserving of our trust. Their judgement was flawed from the beginning and remains flawed through today.

No one should trust their government as much as people have done in this pandemic.

In all society, it is about the many, not the few. In this pandemic, government turned that basic societal pillar into crumbling stone. They sacrificed the many to save the few, and those few in a majority of cases are only slightly delaying the inevitable.
jon357 67 | 16,654
9 May 2021 #6,417
Influenza changes every year

And it can be deadly, as humanity saw in 1918.

Lets get it straight. This was not about keeping people alive. The lockdowns were about keeping the hospitals from getting overwhelmed.

This is very clear. It's obvious to the authorities who took the decision, obvious to you and me, yet baffles the deniers and conspiracists.

I'd add though that it's about much more than just the hospitals; my last post goes into more detail on this.

I am no longer wearing a mask outside.

The same. Things are slowly opening up here too, though walking around town, I can sadly see that quite a few places seem to have closed for good.
mafketis 25 | 9,300
9 May 2021 #6,418
lockdowns were about keeping the hospitals from getting overwhelmed

that was the original justification but the lockdowns remained long after it was shown that governments would take no steps to plan ahead of time. In retrospect accepting the idea that hospitals were at risk was the thin edge of the sword.

No one should trust their government as much as people have done in this pandemic

Very true. It's frightening how many people simply accept the despotic model of government. Politicians are servants and if they don't do as told they should be fired (this for the frightened and terrorized citizens of the formerly democratic country of Canada).

A virus is gonna virus and lockdowns don't stop that they just put it off...
johnny reb 30 | 5,187
9 May 2021 #6,419
A virus is gonna virus and lockdowns don't stop that

Agreed, however let me beat the horse one more time..........
When first discovered they had NO IDEA what this virus was about so they acted accordingly and thank goodness they did or it could have been much worse if they hadn't done what they did and hadn't got a vaccine developed.

Did it sink in that time ?
Sure it's easy for these armchair quarterbacks to focus on hindsight to puff puff puff with a would have should have.
Novichok 1 | 2,465
9 May 2021 #6,420
My question is: How is possible that a forum can have guys like PolAmKrakow and mafketis and, at the same time, morons who get nasty and personal every chance they have. Like, what the fu*ck my socks have anything to do with the thread core subject. Couldn't resist it?

We are not in this together. This is survival of the fittest.

Couldn't say it any better. We all die alone, not as a group. We will be lucky to have just one person next to us when that moment comes.

It's frightening how many people simply accept the despotic model of government

It is. To feel better, they pretend consenting to it as without it their idealized belief system in the goodness of men and "democracy" would come crashing down. To them, the king is still covered.

Obesity is the first condition the medical experts mention when covid mortality is discussed. Next, it's diabetes and high blood pressure as the natural and very predictable consequences.

As an extra, obesity leads to cancer. But, in the upside-down world we live in, we fire the healthy instead of locking the stupid.


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