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EU confirms it will take action against Poland over court reforms


SigSauer 2 | 443    
12 Dec 2017  #211
@Atch

Umm...we can vote in America through an absentee ballot. We never lose this right, since many do still pay tax either on property in the states, or for those of us who live abroad as expats, we pay tax on our income once we exceed $104,000. I will pay 28% tax on $6,000 this year. Plus when we earn bonuses, they are taxed at a 25% rate regardless of our income. Absurd to suggest you would ever lose your right to vote in your home country if you haven't renounced your citizenship.
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
12 Dec 2017  #212
people don't seem to see where this is heading

And here's an example:

TVN have been fined 1.48 million PLN for their coverage of the opposition party demonstrations last December. The National Broadcasting Council ruled that the coverage by TVN's 24-hour news channel broke the law because it showed opposition politicians encouraging people to join the protests thereby "promoting illegal activities and encouraging behaviour that threatens security". All members of the NBC were either appointed by PIS or by Duda.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
12 Dec 2017  #213
broke the law because it showed opposition politicians encouraging people to join the protests

That would be absolutely horrific! But I have never heard of it. What do you mean by 'last December'? Was it December of 2016 or is it this December of 2017? Could you provide a link to that news?
mafketis 16 | 6,322    
12 Dec 2017  #214
Was it December of 2016 or is it this December of 2017?

Apparently announced today about last year. While PiS enthusiasts will probably cheer belligerently, apparently even some on the right wing are appalled at what is clearly media intimidation. If the media is completley polonized then it will be even easier to threaten....

newsweek.pl/polska/polityka/krrit-karze-tvn-najwieksza-kara-w-historii-iii-rp,artykuly,420324,1.html
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
12 Dec 2017  #215
It is simply an unmitigated attack on the freedom of speech rather than just an attack on the liberal media. Absolutely appaling and disgusting! Even the right-wing journalists and several PiS politicians are not "amused" with it.
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
12 Dec 2017  #216
What do you mean by 'last December'?

Yes, last December means December of last year. Here's a link to the Beeb (BBC):

bbc.com/news/world-europe-42316307

Tip of the iceberg Ziem, tip of the forthcoming iceberg.
Ktos 17 | 465    :-(
12 Dec 2017  #217
EU has no rights to interfere in Polish courts system. The reason why Western European "politicians" are screaming like torn underwear is because the cuyrrent courts have allowed EU to enforce shady deals (to the detriment of Poland and Polish people) under the guise of the law. All this favoured Western Europeans.
mafketis 16 | 6,322    
12 Dec 2017  #219
Poles don't want freedom of speech or freedom of the press! They're happy for the party leader to tell them what to think!

(for a supposed Polish patriot you make the country sound like a terrible, backwards place)
Dirk diggler 7 | 3,925    
12 Dec 2017  #220
Millions of poles like it that way. We're not trying to be the west. Plus now poles are far richer than before and our country is doing great. It must now wage a war for its independence and sovereignty again but not with tanks. Trump asked poles at the ak monument if we have the will.to survive and defend our society and I believe were proving everyday that we do
Ktos 17 | 465    :-(
12 Dec 2017  #221
@mafketis

Freedom of foreign speech and freedom of foreign press in Poland you mean. The same speech and press that spreads anti-Polish propaganda everyday, you mean? No thanks, we prefer a tyrant who loves his/her country of birth, Poland.
delphiandomine 87 | 16,888    
12 Dec 2017  #222
I didn't know that Australians liked tyrants in Poland.
Ktos 17 | 465    :-(
12 Dec 2017  #223
You talka lot about Australia, I heard it legalised gay marriage recently, maybe that's why you got so excited about that country.
Ironside 47 | 9,261    
12 Dec 2017  #224
showed opposition politicians encouraging people to join the protests thereby "promoting illegal activities and encouraging behaviour that threatens security".

Even thought everybody know that TVN is a part of the opposition and a culprit - still if they only showed what politician had been saying it is clary not crime - although inciting to crime, treason is obviously a crime and those people and politicians who had been doing it should be detained and judged.
mafketis 16 | 6,322    
12 Dec 2017  #225
still if they only showed what politician had been saying it is clary not crime

I am glad to see we agree at least about that.

The support for PRL style government censorship by some here is very unsettling....
NoToForeigners 6 | 986    
12 Dec 2017  #226
Luckilly they are minority in Poland. PełO and Nowośmieszna ratings hitting rock bottom.
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #227
stinks of the worst of the PRL

Was reading a bit more of the Venice Commission's opinion- "some elements of the reform have a striking resemblance to the institutions which existed in the Soviet Union and its satellites." The European Commission is meeting next week to discuss the situation.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
13 Dec 2017  #228
treason is obviously a crime and those people and politicians who had been doing it should be detained and judged.

Using that logic, you should be detained and judged since leaving Poland for going to live in Norway has clearly been treason on your part. If not that, then it is utmost stupidity to say that what the Polish opposition politicians say in the European Parliament against the Polish government may be called treason, the stupidity that has arisen either from living in Norway for too long or from listening to the dumb PiS propaganda all day and night.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
13 Dec 2017  #229
"some elements of the reform have a striking resemblance to the institutions

some elements of the reform bear a striking resemblance to the German judiciary system - I think these can be the same as the Venice Commission has in mind - by the way they are a bit vague just like yourself often, Atch - btw fvck the Venice Commission
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #230
Using that logic,

I know, it beggars belief doesn't it? What he's basically saying is that anyone in opposition to the government is 'guilty' presumably of treason!! One party state is clearly the reasoning behind that.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
13 Dec 2017  #231
a striking resemblance to the German judiciary system

That is not the case at all. You have just been listening to PiS propaganda for too long and tend to believe in everything they have to say. PiS propaganda manipulates people exactly in the same way that PRL propaganda did.
Ktos 17 | 465    :-(
13 Dec 2017  #232
What he's basically saying is that anyone in opposition to the government is 'guilty' presumably of treason!!

It is this reasoning like yours that brainwashes other people. You have been brainwashed by reading pro EU propaganda news and now you contaminate the minds of others with your own propaganda.
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #233
Let's hope you have a force field round yours then or you may be in danger from my honeyed words :))
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
13 Dec 2017  #234
has clearly been treason on your part

according to what definition of treason
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #235
Well anybody who fails to be 'loyal' to Poland by Irony's thinking, for example those Polish MEPs who voted for Article 7. By that definition a Polish national who chooses to leave Poland permanently and take up residence in a foreign land, going into self-imposed exile would be a traitor. So yes, Ironside should have himself arrested and detained as quickly as possible before he undermines the Polish state any further :))
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
13 Dec 2017  #236
That is not the case at all.

I looked up how judges are appointed and promoted in Germany the other day (I am talking about judges in regular courts that are administered by the Bundeslands) - and their system is much less democratical than ours - to put it shortly the justice ministers of Bundeslands appoint and promote judges - and nobody screams bloody murder in the EU - so how is not comparable to the current proposals in Poland?

Well anybody who fails to be 'loyal'

one can live abroad for various reasons and still be loyal to Poland - are you unloyal to Ireland because you live in Poland Atch - comm'on - you can do better than that
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #237
The Polish court reform encompasses all branches of the judiciary but most importantly it affects the Supreme Court. At least 40% of presently serving Supreme Court judges including the President of the Supreme Court who is the most senior member of the bench, will be instantly dismissed. This kind of overnight sacking of judges is unheard of in a democracy. Add it to the restrictions placed on the Constitutional Court last year and you have a judiciary with which the government is messing in a wholesale manner.

are you unloyal to Ireland because you live in Poland Atch

No, that's different of course. I'm duty bound to spread a bit of Irish fairy dust around the world :)
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
13 Dec 2017  #238
This kind of overnight sacking of judges is unheard of in a democracy.

the true democracy is the rule of the people - and people should be able to elect their judges - or dismiss them at their will - the previous system was not doing that at all - especially when it comes to appointing or firing of judges - the current case is not a case of pure democracy but a representative one - much better in my view than the previous system
OP Atch 16 | 2,647    
13 Dec 2017  #239
Gumi, that's not really very realistic. Most members of the electorate are not even very clear about the functions of the different courts let alone how to go about selecting judges. Selection of judges requires knowledge of the world of law at in intimate level where one can determine the suitability of candidates. The 'closed' nature of the legal profession is unfortunately something that goes with the territory and is a necessary evil. I don't see how you think that the present government being solely responsible for the selection of Supreme Court Judges is 'representative' in any way. It's simply replacing one form of nepotism with another. Also you're failing to see the implications in terms of the role of the Supreme Court who, amongst other things, oversees elections in Poland..........anyway, a duck awaits roasting, otherwise my poor husband will have no din dins! Bye for now :))
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
13 Dec 2017  #240
The 'closed' nature of the legal profession is unfortunately something that goes with the territory and is a necessary evil.

yes - you put it well - it's evil - I don't agree it is necessary - codex laws can be done away with instead jugdes can pass just verdicts and many many people are able to see which verdicts are just and which are not



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