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No de-Communisation in Poland?


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,831
26 Sep 2010 #31
Erm, surely Wessies had nothing to hide, and yet they hardly prosecuted many people?

Umm...it wasn't their Stasi crimes...it wasn't their duty to go after them now.
Ossis queued up for this job!

I'm still not sure what you are trying to sell? Are you a commie? To much sympathies???
Because all your arguments for not going after the criminals sound fishy...
Nothing which wouldn't had been doable with abit determination. It really paints the picture
as if there are the old Seilschaften still working...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Sep 2010 #32
Umm...it wasn't their Stasi crimes...
Ossis queued up for this job!

Still, the Volkskammer didn't pass any such law.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to sell? Are you a commie? To much sympathies???

Sounds like the classic Kaczynski argument - "YOU'RE NOT MASSIVELY ANTI COMMUNIST THEREFORE YOU ARE A COMMUNIST".

Lustration would simply have divided society and caused much more problems than it would fix - the current solution of requiring people to declare their non-cooperation is sensible, pragmatic and works.

Let's bear in mind here that going after criminals - well, Germany prosecuted them under BRD law, not DDR law. Morally - that's about as dodgy as it gets. Victor's justice, no?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,831
26 Sep 2010 #33
Sounds like the classic Kaczynski argument - "YOU'RE NOT MASSIVELY ANTI COMMUNIST THEREFORE YOU ARE A COMMUNIST".

Well...sorry...when you talk about "hot headed Poles" as a reason not to go after the criminals what else do you want us to believe?

That no trustworthy person in Poland could be found to take the job either???

That are no real arguments and you know it...

So why all this talk? Do you think Nazi crimes should had gone unpunished too?

Let's bear in mind here that going after criminals - well, Germany prosecuted them under BRD law, not DDR law. Morally - that's about as dodgy as it gets. Victor's justice, no?

Well..so was persecuting Nazis and Holocaust mass murderer...your point being?

Lustration would simply have divided society and caused much more problems than it would fix

How so?
AdamKadmon 2 | 501
26 Sep 2010 #34
Skończcie wreszcie z tą goebelsiadą.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,831
26 Sep 2010 #35
Why? If it had gone after your folks he (Göbbels) should had been allowed to live on happily ever after as all was over.

Why divide and disturb the society even more with going after him and his crimes, right? Riiiiight?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,163
26 Sep 2010 #36
Well...sorry...when you talk about "hot headed Poles" as a reason not to go after the criminals what else do you want us to believe?
That no trustworthy person in Poland could be found to take the job either???

Who? Solidarity was divided from the outset between workers and intellectuals, and the divide was much bigger than was commonly reported at the time. Even today - you can see just how big that gap really was.

If they had chosen a "worker" to open the files, then he undoubtably would have been possessed with the idea of revenge. If they had chosen an intellectual, he would have been more interested in driving the country forward than revenge. It's a gross simplification, but at the end of the day, there was no one figure that people could have united around.

So why all this talk? Do you think Nazi crimes should had gone unpunished too?

Many of them did. Don't forget that the Wirtschaftswunder partially used Nazi experience. If West Germany failed to thoroughly implement anti-nazification, what hope would post-Communist Poland have? The West German example showed us that you need to keep experienced individuals in their jobs.

In the case of the former East Germany, it was flooded by Wessies. Isn't it common knowledge that the West Germans effectively took over many institutions - meaning that

they could do a complete purge, because the Wessies were in charge anyway?

Well..so was persecuting Nazis and Holocaust mass murderer...your point being?

It's an interesting legal point, that's all. But - as I recall - the Federal Republic claimed continuity with the Third Reich - whereas it never accepted the legitimacy of the DDR. The Nuremburg Trials could therefore arguably be held under the jurisdiction of a successor state, whereas the post-DDR trials weren't. But it's just legal theory.

How so?

In Poland? Well - look at what happened in the symbolic industries represented by Solidarity. Solidarity managers drove the shipyards into the ground, they drove Ciegelski in Poznan into the ground, they're driving the mines into the ground - it proves that they didn't have the experience to run things on a bigger level. Even Mazowiecki's government called in the foreign experts rather than relying on non-Communist Poles.
AdamKadmon 2 | 501
26 Sep 2010 #37
Why divide and disturb the society even more with going after him and his crimes, right?

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. That's his everlasting legacy.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,831
26 Sep 2010 #38
*shrugs*

Maybe you are right! I'm not so knowledgeable with inner polish workings.

But I for one are glad to know that some of our biggest arseholes couldn't go on after the wall came down as if nothing happened.

And that alot of those whose lives had been destroyed found some justice in the end.

In my opinion it was good for our society, not dividing it.

Having to watch criminals of old again in high power positions and doing their things unpunished would had been bad for all of us.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. That's his everlasting legacy.

And???
That has to do with this topic what exactly?
Ironside 53 | 12,424
26 Sep 2010 #39
Having to watch criminals of old again in high power positions and doing their things unpunished would had been bad for us.

Well, BB you come very close to understand polish politics. You can understand inner workings in polish society and a big lie sold by mass media to the people.
gumishu 13 | 6,140
28 Sep 2010 #41
Both Walesa and his political opponents may have interfered with his file

his political opponents had for the most time no access to the archives - and it is well documented that his files were heavily emtied during his time as a president - it was documented by the ministry of interior notes - Wałęsa's past has some skeleton in the cupboard - were it a minor thing it would be more sensible to acknowledge some cooperation - the actions aiming to hide any cooperation with communist security agencies cast a deep shadow on Wałęsa's past


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