How will BREXIT affect the immigrants in UK and Poland.

Nicely put, and very true, but the knock-on financial effects do matter. I remember seeing a photo of a Welsh town that had greatly benefitted from EU funds. The place had been a post-industrial dump, with boarded up shops and a depressed look. Regeneration money made the place look alive again. One Remainer shop owner put a sign in the window which said something like, "This town was a s***-hole before EU funding". Poland has benefitted enormously from EU membership, including on a local scale. In my small village we have a new 450000PLN village hall, and a new road that covered cobblestones.

That is not what I said....Can you imagine situation like this in Poland- Organised groups of Asians rape, exploit young girls from broken ,dysfunctional homes.

Some people ( including these girls) try to notify authorities about it but they are dismissed as Police/Social Services don't want to get involved and accused of being racists. So it was going for years...

Criminals are everywhere but it is Police job to catch and punish them and they did not do it what I think is SHAMEFUL.

So the village is indebted now, Probably more they can afford to pay back, all that for some redundant village hall they could hardly afford (or need of the matter). Ah they also have a smooth road rather than classy cobblestones. So now all young buckos, passing morons and drunks have their urge for speed enhanced by an inviting smooth new road. Congrats!

Wait till some child gonna by ran over some speedy Marcin, cobblestones had an important role of speed breakers.

wtf are you on about? I've just passed that village hall. It's full of people celebrating a wedding. No debt. The cobbles were a pain in the arse. We don't get boy racers speeding through. Why tell me about my own village when you have no clue what you are talking about?

Oh how rude.
I'm talking about EU financial help system which force people to put on the table half of the money or more. Those money are taken as a loan from some foreign banks and somehow someone sometime along the line will have to pay it back.

So my question is wouldn't be better for the village and all villages like that to pull together some money and do it for half price all needed improvements? If they are needed.


Well, speed breakers. Not yet.

@cms

That was the right move at the time and remains so for every passing government

If you didn't want guys who kill gays and fund or are terrorists and their tens of billions of dollars in your banks and huge orders for weapons and other projects just say no then

Tell the Saudis no we Brits don't want your money. Tell the labor not to sell weapons used to bomb goat herders.

In the EU case Brits didn't NEED Europe, Europe needed the brits. They have way more control over how they run their economy and small businesses, industry, etc. Times are a bit different now than the 90 2000s etc. Norway n Switzerland aren't EU either n they're doing just fine too. and the trade agreement was far from perfect. There's no sense in talking about it anyway it was the will of the peoples country and it passed. Just like as in Iran the people wanted an Islamic republic or Jesus being crowned king of Poland, or Austria and central/east EU being more eurosceptic now too.

The police can't even keep up in western Europe esp France. Street cops arenr even strapped in uk. Lol ask a ***** if he would pull over or not try to flee on foot knowing the cop who's fuvking w him n trying to pull him over. Thankfully england isn't too bad off with the crime but its still bad in some parts.

And ya those Cobblestones are a ***** for stiff suspensions and low pro tires

You are ignorant of the facts

The EU financial system does not require half of the funds being stumped up by villagers for a simple village hall or asphalt road. It's a grant not a loan. Have any of you driven over cobblestones in snow ? Each one becomes a tiny ice cube.

when you say they voted for "it" what does "it" mean ? Hard Brexit ? Soft Brexit ? Single market ? Customs union ? Switzerland and Norway are both in the Single Market and in the EEA and in the customs union - but this is a position the British government have not decide on yet (they have not decided on much)

Britain did need Europe in 1972 when it joined - left without an empire after the 60s it was falling badly behind its neighbors economically which gave it the impetus to join.

"Britain did need Europe in 1972 when she joined...."

She still does, only she doesn't realize it:-) As one of her national poets John Donne once remarked in that oft quoted verse: "No man's an island, entire of itself. Everyone is a part of the continent, a part of the main....." Whether or not he was referring specifically to the continent of Europe nonetheless remains irrelevant.

Such was true then, and it's no less true now!

It may need exports/imports from Europe which it will continue to receive. It does not need the books of diktats on how to wipe your butt after a deuce. There is 400 different EU rules on how a toothbrush is suppose to be made... A freaken toothbrush.. That is what it doesn't need, neither does it need Spanish ships fishing in its waters, nor all the migrants they were him obliged to take which ended up scamming the benefits system - poles included. We poles joke that upon retirement well just go on benefits in UK.

Things have changed. Britain same as Austria Poland and Hungary want less and less to do with eu political influence in their own countries. That's why Britain left. Again their sovereign vote and decision to leave pointless arguing over spilled milk.

Some of Britain's migrants are a legacy of their own colonial past and as for Poles, they weren't obliged to take them back in 2004. They chose to.

That was their choice. We Poles are choosing not to take in forced migrants - we instead will take in Ukrainians, Chinese, Indians, and any one else with money and ability to assimilate, add to the society etc. of our own choosing.

The people scamming the benefits system in UK are mostly Romanians, Poles (main two groups), followed by Lithuanians, Bulgarians, etc. not the guys who came from Jamaica, Nigeria, Pakistan, etc. Those guys perhaps in a way, but with Romanians and Poles way more so. They'd send hella people from villages to register in UK, take out benefits in their name, then go back home to PL. Sometimes they'd get a cut, sometimes not.

Membership of the EU means that EU citizens have the right to work in other EU countries so that's a form of migration which Poland can't control that. If a Lithuanian, Bulgarian or Romanian wants to come to Poland, Poland can't stop them. Unless of course Poland leaves the EU.

@Atch

Of course. No one ever said they can't. However, very few Lithuanian, Bulgarian, and Romanians among others with the exception of Ukranians for the most part (which isn't even an EU nation and just recently received visa free) come to Poland because of our low wages, nonexistent welfare system, and far better opportunities westward.

If Germany makes the million people they took in EU citizens than of course Poland can't stop them from coming in. Poland has little to offer these people and they know that. However, Germany isn't sending its fine EU citizens who have been in Europe for years to our borders. They're trying to force people that have come in the past year or two or so and are stuck in some camp in Greece, Italy, or are sleeping out on the streets or wherever into our borders. We have no clue who these people are, how they will integrate, what skills they have, etc. In most cases we don't even know what their age even is. Time and time again there's been reports of 30 and 40 year old looking dude claiming they 16, 17, etc.

Yes, but I'm not sure what your point is. You started by saying that membership of the EU forced the UK to take in migrants who subsequently scammed the benefits system. Then when I pointed out that they chose to accept those migrants at a time when there was no EU obligation to do so, you agreed but said that Poland won't do that. What you're really on about is the 'forced migration' of middle eastern Muslims which is a separate issue, nothing to do with the EU migrants scamming the system in the UK.

The migrants who've been sent to Ireland under the EU relocation scheme if you want to call it that, have all been interviewed at length before being accepted and seem to be ok, lots of well educated ones. They're not all mad Islamic terrorists.

The forced migration of Poland which the EU wants to enact is a separate issue - little to nothing to do with the UK. Nonetheless, we have seen immigration in general as a point of contention within the EU and Europe - including in Austria. The fact that UK chose to accept EU migrants, which included Poles, was because of the EU allowing movement of people and goods throughout the continent. Prior to that, as well as into 2004 to the present, yes UK accepted many people from Commonwealth countries. Much of the people they took in post 2004 though included Poles and Romanians, as well as other Eastern Europeans. The Poles I believe are actually the largest EU group inside England. The British weren't too happy with the sudden flood of people from Europe, not to mention all the other people who have come since 2010 due to migration movement from Africa and ME as well as those trafficked from the tip of France into the UK. Some Brits like the high skill low wage Eastern Europeans, others do not. The attitude has been a bit more favorable than towards Muslims because Poles generally integrate a bit better since it is afterall Europe and many learned English in schools. Nonetheless, the general issues associated with massive migration, along with economic and political factors influencing the UK, reams of EU laws, etc are why so many Brits chose 'leave' in the referendum.


Of course most aren't. It only takes 1% - and when you're taking in 100k's, 1 mil's etc that 1% becomes larger and larger. Ireland is smart to vet people, unfortunately Germany, France, etc didn't do such a good job of vetting. ISIS clearly said that they're going to infiltrate Europe via refugees/migrants... Based on all the attacks and the fact that their capital of Raqqa and now Deirezour is crumbling, we need to be more careful than ever.

@Atch
Intelligence, intelligence, intelligence lol

The UK could have chosen to limit the movement of people for several years like many other countries did, e.g. Germany. But the British government wanted cheap labour and thus decided against it. So blaming the EU for this is objectively wrong.

Which is one reason why Poland doesn't not feel the need to jump any time Germany says 'frog'. Germany and France created a lot of bad will by their fear of Polish labor and have done approximately nothing since then to repair it.

Their policy then also gives the lie to the fiction that the Merkeljugend migrants will ever be anything but a welfare drain because all most could ever be is cheap labor (provided you could force them into jobs which is far form certain) which Germany doesn't want

A fear that was fully justified though. Germany had already high unemployment in the earls 2000s when the decision was made, and considering the problems we already have with welfare tourists from Eastern Europe even now (there is currently a debate about homeless Eastern Europeans in Berlin parks), it was a necessary step.


Poland would not have been able to join the EU without the support of Germany, that alone should have earned Polish gratitude. Nevermind that even with this limitation, Germany has become the main destination for Eastern European migrants, and with Brexit will probably see a further surge of immigration.

However we were talking about the UK here, and as pointed out, that so many Polish migrants came to the UK was not due to the EU, but thanks to the British government.

Then Germany should realzie that countries act in their own interests and not the interests of other countries.


Faithful lapdogs is the role assigned to Poland and Czech and Slovakia etc?


Yes, the UK acted as an unconditional ally and earned a huge amount of good will that still exists because of that. Germany and France decided they didn't need Poland as an ally and took another track. Fair enough. But that has consequences.


Fair enough, it's clear that even now Poland can't help its own citizens as much as it could/should/would like. All the more reason for not engaging in expensive misguided charity projects like inviting thousands of usntable young men without the cultural linguistic background needed for integration. Germany can afford them. Poland can't.

Not only. The EU promotes the movement of people and goods within the bloc so they came on their own. What the British did was made it easier for Poles to get a job when other countries didn't have as favorable labor conditions. It's because they wanted high quality cheap labor. Far more Poles, Romanians, Lithuanians, etc came after 2004 than before.


The opposite is happening. Those currently living within Britain that aren't citizens are worried about their status. Many Poles have already left - Polish international moving companies are extremely busy moving Polish families from UK back to PL. Plus, many people from Poles and Romanians to students from India are not more weary of moving to the UK because of Brexit and fear that they'll be asked to leave soon after arriving.


Not true at all. Poland was one of 8 countries to join EU at the same time. Germany helped, and also invested a lot of money into Poland even as early as the 90's. However, we along with the other Baltic states, would've became part of the EU with or without much German help. To say that Germany was directly responsible for Poland's ascension into the EU and Poland wouldn't of joined the bloc without Germany is an exaggeration.

theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/25/surge-in-poles-leaving-uk-since-brexit-vote-fuels-net-migration-drop
thesun.co.uk/news/3068281/polands-cities-are-thriving-again-as-thousands-return-home-since-brexit-after-we-found-deserted-streets-four-years-ago


A lot of them don't want to work. Walk through Tower Hamlets in the middle of the afternoon on a Monday or other business day and you'll see tons of guys and black clad ninjas walking about aimlessly, chatting and shopping at the stalls, pushing 2 child strollers followed by a few more slightly older kids who can already walk, and loitering about. Its clear they are in no rush to get back to any sort of job. Its the same in Germany with the recent migrants. They sit at their camps all day or walk around on the streets and complain that the internet is slow. When the governments are paying more money to the migrants than they'd ever make back home of course they won't want to get off of it. Even if you gave them a low skill low pay job that's a tad higher than the benefits they'd still rather chose the benefits since they can do whatever they want during the day. This is why citizens of so many countries are furious. There have been many reports of even old people being forced to leave their apartments because the government bought it out and is turning it into migrant housing - especially in Germany. The Swedish government is hosting migrants on a freakin cruise ship that the tax payers are paying to lease out. The Germans bought a 4 star hotel to house migrants and promptly fired all the hotel workers at a moment's notice. They don't pay for sh!t and have no plans to work. If they cut their welfare payments they'd all either get a job or leave.

There divide between the countries east of Germany and those west of Germany is deepening everyday. If Germany, Brussels, etc wants to fix the EU and not have it collapse, they need to give the states more sovereignty in their home affairs and not meddle in their local affairs. This is why Austria, Poland, Hungary, Czechy, Slovakia, Bulgaria, are saying no more. They don't want to leave the EU, but they're not going to allow Brussels to tell them what to do and what not to do within their sovereign borders. Poles view the EU as a promotion of European economies, promotion of trade within the bloc, ability to immigrate to a wealthier EU country, and so on.

Germany is still welcoming Polish migrants while the UK has decided to curb Eastern European imigration and even threatens the rights of Polish residents. Interesting that you believe that they played a more positive role than Germany in this.


Poland has to live up to its' obligations to the EU. It won't be able to avoid this without consequences. Consequences that will be far more expensive than caring for a few thounsand refugees. Poland receives several bns each year because of European solidarity. It demands Nato troops on its' territory out of solidarity. Yet when Southern European faces a refugee crisis, it has no intention to show solidarity. This might cost Warsaw dearly in the future. Why should countries like Italy show any interest in increasing their defence budget, or agree to more Nato troops on European soil when they were betrayed by Eastern Europe?

I didn't intent to argue about Poland and Germany in this thread. I just wanted to point out that one key argument of the Brexit campaign was based on a deliberate lie, it was not he EU who forced on them Eastern European migrants, it was the British government who made this decision. This argument is even more nonsensical if you consider that most of their muslimic immigrants are from the former Commonwealth (the culprits in Rotterdam were Pakistani) and that the Brexit campaign promised closer ties to the Commonwealth (which seems very unrealistic to me in the first place).

Not an exaggeration, just the truth. There are many books out there that describe the negotiations before the EU enlargmenent. I once wrote an university paper about this. The UK wanted an Eastern Enlargement, because they needed more workers and more crucially, wanted to prevent deeper European integration. France was fiercely opposed because the wanted deeper European integration before further enlargement. It was up to Germany to act as tie breaker. If Germany had sided with France, the EU enlargement would not have happened so soon.

The truth is that Germany was one of 15 current EU states that signed the 2003 Treaty of Accession. It was signed and ratified by ALL 10 acceding states and all 15 Member States of the European Union.

Poland's entry into the EU and closer ties with Western Europe were being discussed as early as the 1990's - almost immediately after the downfall of the PRL. In 1991 Poland was already a formal associate of the EU and in 94 was a member of the EEC. In 1997, EU accepted the EC's opinion to invite Poland among other nations to start talks on their accession to the EU. Negotiations began in 98 and was made official with the signing of the Treaty of Accession. So no, Germany was absolutely not the only responsible party for bringing Poland in. This was a process that took place over 20 years between Poland and the EU community at large - not just Germany.


Still would've happened.... This was an agreement between the existing EU at the time and 8 countries wishing to join all at the same time. Maybe Germany helped speed it up at best, but they certainly weren't the ones responsible for Poland, or 7 other countries, joining in. It was an agreement between the existing EU, Germany being one of a dozen or so members, and the 8 wishing to join. This process was set in motion in Poland, like I wrote above, already in the 90s with consecutive treaties and summits deepening Poland's integration with the EU from the 90's with being an associate EU member and EEC member to becoming a formal EU member in 04 (actually almost a year earlier in may 03 when the treaty of accession made it official)


Being the tie breaking vote and being the sole responsible party for 8 countries' EU ascension are totally different things. Poland began to deepen ties with the EU/EEC/etc as early as the late 80's early 90's.

Here's a good summary of events:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etapy_integracji_Polski_z_Uni%C4%85_Europejsk%C4%85

@Dirk diggler

Please read a book about the negotiations. Wikipedia is nice, but it gives only a very short overview.
This is all very well documented. It was Germany to overcame French objections, if Germany had sided with France, the enlargement would not have happened.


I have never said that they were the only resposnible party, just they key responsible party. If France and Germany had objected enlargement, it would not have happened. Simple as that.

I don't need to read a book on 1 negotiation to understand a timeline. It would've happened regardless - at worst not as quick. Poland's EU accension was a decade and a half long process from the late 80's/early 90s


Aside from France and Germany, there were 13 other EU members in 2003 prior to the A8's ascension. Nonetheless, all 15 signed the 2003 treaty.

Poland applied for EU membership in Athens in 1994.... then was confirmed by ALL members at the Essen summit later in 94.

This thread is about Austria anyway, not Poland's EU ascension...

Those homeless are warfare tourists but those middle eastern and African you pay 100 euro a day or thereabout and give them hotels and nice places to live in are refugees. Are your sane or you are typing from asylum as a part of your therapy?

As if that has been some kind of favor. Germany done it because there are powerful forces within the EU mainly in Germany and France that are opining for building EU empire hence their expansionist politics and meddling in Yugoslavia.

@Poland would not have been able to join the EU without the support of Germany, that alone should have earned Polish gratitude@
Pay reparations for the war first and than ask for gratitude. There is a natural order of things. Beside all that it need to be said that Poland is a one huge market for German goods and services, do you trying to tell me it is just a coincidence?

The eastern enlargement of the EU was not so much about Europe, but about NATO expansion. Blair and his masters in the US were the ones who were really pushing for it. France and Germany only supported that decision.


Anybody forcing the Polish people to buy German products? Buy Chinese if you have a problem. :)

Refugees are those who can prove that they have claim for political asylum, those who don't have claim are not refugees. The welfare tourists from Eastern Europe are not refugees (and they don't claim to be ones, since they have access to the welfare system of Germany simply because they are EU citizens). But well, this is the wrong thread to discuss this.