1.3% birth rate = Poland's slow death

SeanBM
I often get the imrpession that you are only out to hone your debating skills rather than trying to get to the bottom of a real problem. That's OK, I reckon, to each his own. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel you may even come up with draughts and tic-tac-toe (spelling?) addictions, but the number of people in such therapy programmes I'm sure is negligible comapred to booze, drugs, nicotine, gambling and Internet dependence.

And probably the chess addicts are mainly those who play internet chess, maybe also internet solitaire -- so those would be double addictions..

I think you are on here to preach, as you often judge others in the harshest of light and have no back up for your opinionated statements.

Saying that I am honeing my debating skills would normally be a complement if it were not from someone who really has none.

So your "get to the bottom of a real problem" of Poland's birth rate is to blame computer games, that's your piece de la resistance, you are clearly not getting to the bottom of anything with such ridiculous opinions.

You've gone from "there is no such thing to chess addiction" to being an expert on the issue.


There, we agree but I like reading your posts, they are not the way I view the world.

SeanBM
Your not very original. Reductio ad absurdum was thought up by the ancient Romans. No-one would pin fertiltiy or its lack on one thing like computer games. They were but a tiny fragment of the umbridled plunge into the consumerist pop culture that engulfed Poland after 1989, and that was largely to blame. People going gung-ho like the suddenly unleashed guard dog Burek. Just shows to go, that 'co nadto to niezdrowo!'

OK...so the best place to increase Poland's population would be in a monastery....

Well not then, by then the economy was in ruins and communism was coming to an end.

Cut to the chase, how does capitalism and democracy slow Poland's birth rates?

He for sure has a problem with pop music :) And has a penchant for the good old PRL times :)
So the best way to procreate in Poland is dancing mazurkas/polonaises, go to church and forget all evils of the modern world....
One could also become a priest...I refer to the brilliant Newsweek issue from some weeks ago...

OK, what is your infallible reason for the demographic collsapse?. Your beloved Tusk is also concerned. POLAND IS AT THE TAIL END OF EUROPE WITH BULGARIA AND LITHUANIA IN TERMS OF BIRTH RATE. 1.3%. I await your as always enlightened reply.

immigration

Please state why pop music, movies (the Western decadent kind of course) and PC games are responsible for the declining birth rates in Poland?
Maybe the reason is that people decided they do not want 5 kids anymore and 1/2 is enough?

The question is why have they decided? WHo are what persuaded them? Aee marrieds with four or five kids looked up to nowadays, , envied by peer groups, glorifed by the media and honoured by the state with medals and special stipends? Or, on the contrary, is the view being peddled that having kids is costly, wrecks one's social life, hamstrings one's career and should be put off until the wife is on the very broink of birthabiltiy (35-40), when a second chiuld is out of the question?

@ Polonius3

ALL this talk of evil pop consumerism culture and you do not actually have a clue as to how it lead to Polands decreased birth rate.

You sure are someone who talks a lot but says nothing.

Such gems as Poles don't go to the cinema, computer games, music and shopping but no clear argument, are we on topic at all???

What is your expert reason for the demographic coilapse? What do you think will be its conseuqences in 10, 20,m 30 years from now?

I'm not an expert, I just called you out on the crap you've been posting, that's all.

But if you'd like my opinion, I would say that it is down to several factors:

- 1 Woman are no longer seen as baby factories, there place is not in the home turfing out children, cooking and cleaning.
- 2 Financial strain is also an issue, with couples having to both work to pay for the mortgage.
- 3 Emigration, Polish people were not able to leave the country so readily, so there was a exodus of about 2 million people, that's gotta have an effect on the population's burth rate.

- 4 Poland is not at war and hasn't been for a rather long time, so no baby booming.
- 5 In 1960s and 70s abortion was on demand, people could just walk in to a clinic, now they can't, so people are more aware of the realities of getting pregnant.

- 6 Probably the biggest factor, which ties the others together is education and therefore choices.


I think, there will be an aging society, with not enough taxes because the young working population will be too small to aid the elderly, like in Germany. So immigrants will be brought in.

What immigrant groups in your view would be most beneficial to and least problematic for Poland? Which ones do you think are most likely to actually be brought in? Or will they bring themsleves in? Being brought in sounds like a major recruitment drive by the state.

It's not really about what groups I think are most benificial, it's about Poland becoming a major economy more like England, France and Germany. And other countries, like Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy weakening economically.

It's part of the E.U. so all other member states can easily come here and work, as I am.

also the Polish emigrants in other countries will marry non-Poles and return to Poland.


With economic strengthening, less fortunate peoples from all over will want to come to Poland, like when Poles used to try and leave during communism times for a better life.

But there is a thread about this topic somewhere on this site.

My opinion on Polands declining Birth Rate

- If Poland wants to remain a homogenous nation, this is bad

- If Poland wants to continue improving economically as a whole, this is good

Having lots of children is an out-dated cultural norm. I notice it to be still prevalent in religious circles and/or people that grew up in large values themselves. Having grown up as a Polish immigrant in the USA, I obviously did not have much extended family around and a 3rd child would have heavily crippled our family economically.

My expectation is to have 2 children (Same as my parents) and a 3rd or 4th would depend entirely on our economic situation at the time. Considering I am already in my late 20's, I doubt I will have more than 2 or 3.

Nations that are over-populated, are usually undesirable to live in. High-birth rates is still practiced in regions like South America, Africa & the Middle East. This is not by coincidence.

Global Birth Rate

If Poland can round out its population at somewhere around 40-45 million then that would be fine. For a country that size geographically, that leaves a lot of room for recreation and prosperity.

If Poland (somehow) has a baby boom and exceeds those numbers than it can ship the excess to Great Britain:)

and all young people running away from poland donot see bright future for our country

Notice how they all run to Britain and then have kids? It tells you something about what they need to feel comfortable having a family.

I would like to thank kondzior, Lodz, Szlachcic, and others who have the right mindset. Its like this that nations go forward.
Others just want to go forward by: gay marriage, abortions, feminism, affirmative action and obsession with $$$. These ideas all destroy society. Having a nice steady population and birth rate (I think 2.1 is average to sustain society) are good things.


Amen. Its in the genes, culture and the "Polishness" in people. This never left me even from the moment I left in the early 80s. EU is destroying this and PO isnt helping. One of the most popular first names in Britain or France cant remember which is Mohamed for Pete's sake. Thats not a good thing. If these multicultural lunatics and third world immigrants keep pouring in it spells disaster. (i.e. Detroit, Chicago).


In my opinion 50 million would be very nice. In the short run economy might take a dive but then it should increase as is natural. Many higher populated nations are having their economy go up as well (like China, Brazil, India, etc).

*cant wait for Delph or Harrys insults, not that im innocent myself"


People are way to worried with overpopulation. The problem areas are in Africa and parts of Asia where they are having 5+6 kids (which is bad in impoverished nations). Surely Poland can go from 1.3/couple to 2.3 without causing "huge" problems.

Oil does have a limit but its still a LONG way before it is all used up. With time and technology there will be new methods. It shouldnt be a problem.


France has "highest" rates in Europe because of the big Muslim population. Even the birth rates in both nations are still below 2.1 per couple among couples (white people only, Muslims increase the rate in France to near 2.1).


The numbers are still massive enough to last before new technology replaces it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves


It plays a role. It may not play a big role but it still makes a difference.

The problem is, Legend, you do not put real humans into the equation and you just assume these are the reasons for decline in population when It has more to do with other factors. The point being, generations fluctuate in number and you cannot rely on each one always being more than the last. If you want to see more kids, then you need to figure out how to make the world a wonderful place for them. Then you will see more of them.

MarcinD
Freudian slip? You wrote: '...people that grew up in large values themselves', when you obviously meant 'large families'. According to the Freudians, that slip-up suggests that deep down you believe large families are a positive value, but wanting to seem 'modern' and going with today's mainstream popcultrure flow, you are suppressing that thought..

This was another point I was thinking of, poor countries usually means high birth rates.
High mortality rates due to poor (or no) health care usually means that people have more babies so that some will survive.
A counterintuitive plan is to increase the mortality rate in poorer countries and this should decrease birthrates, it's a bit tricky to get your head around as it seems, at first, to fly in the face of reason [naturalnews.com/029911_vaccines_Bill_Gates.html] - Bill Gates talk on TED.

Poland is becoming a more prosperous country and it seems to be a trend that means lower birth rates.

I grew up in a very Catholic country, in my parent's and grandparent's generations it was normal to have10/12 kids. As the country became more prosperous, the birth rate plummeted. I know families with 10/11 children (my own age) but this was unsual and now is almost unheard of.


Have you any info to back that up?


You left Poland during communism to the U.S.A. and now you complain about "multicultural lunatics and third world immigrants"?


The possible problem is not the population but what age is the majority of the population.
Think how high the taxes would need to be if one working adult had to support two old age pensioners (for example).

During martial law (and the whole bloody thing is common knowledge which I personally experienced first-hand in case some smart a*rse asks 'Where's the evidence?') all cinemas and theatres were closed, concerts and sporting events banned, phone conversations monitored, mail censored, a curfew enforced, and people couldn't leave their hometown without special permsision. Petrol was severely rationed and the TV mainly broadcast communist propaganda. So there was ltitle else to do except badmouth Jabberwocky & Co. and copulate. Hence the baby boom of the early 1990s.

HAHAHAHA! great post!!!

Have you any 'good' links or know of any books which give personal testaments of this time period? I often asked my ex about the martial law period, he more or less denied it's existence as did his mates??? Just personal interest, I like history.

Thanks.

In other posts you were telling you are born Polonia and always were Polonia. So how combines?

Please re-read the post more carefully. Polonia is not a place, it's a frame of mind. You take it with you wherever you go. When in Poland I never stopoed being a Polonian despite the years I have spent in my grandparents' homeland. Looks like you just like to bicker and squabble and, as they say, 'szuzkasz dziury w całym!'

As we all thought - the American Polonia are suffering from mental delusions.