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€80 billion for Poland new EU budget


Natasa 1 | 580
30 Jun 2011 #31
It's not a submisive position because Poles in other countries can do the same.

I agree it shouldn't be, but what do others think?
Non Poles?
alexw68
30 Jun 2011 #32
Is Poland equally worth member of EU like Germany, France...etc.?

In principle, obviously yes. In practice - to a degree. The 'yes' part of that argument is that Poland can lead (and has led) the EU in its 6-monthly rotations; the no is that it doesn't have voting rights at top table consistent with either its economic punching power or its population. Which will cause justifiable resentment among patriots; but at the same time, unjustifiable petulance among those in this country who continue to practise the abject politics of victimhood.

It's easy to forget how young independent Poland is as a political entity. As such, there are bound to be differences of principle between it and member states whose borders were drawn over a century ago. The expectations of the 'West' are different. Some of those expectations, actually, are correct on any reading. Poland or anyone else who rejects the whole EU package out of hand is missing that point - it has work to do to reach certain standards of, for example: healthcare, independence of the judiciary, infrastructure that are taken for granted in at least most of the 'senior' EU member states. And the EU by subsidising infrastructure developments is hardly blocking that process, even if there are some stipulations attached.
David_18 68 | 982
30 Jun 2011 #33
Ola la that's actually more then what Poland receives atm ;9
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
30 Jun 2011 #34
In practice It will be no more than 70, we will take no more than 60 out of it paying no less than 35 into it directly, add abandoned tariffs, additional burocracy, CO2 penalties and other bullsites they are going to invent soon and we will hardly make a penny out of it. It should be free trade area, nothing more.

That's quite a chunk per capita and plenty for you to personally pay back your share, as you promised to. You can send the check to me.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
30 Jun 2011 #35
Poland's contribution is around 2 billion a year, no more.

It's 4 billion in 2011 and will be growing every year.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
30 Jun 2011 #36
So not very much really considering all the building work and general improvement that's going on.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
30 Jun 2011 #37
General consensus in the UK is that we leave the EU...I make no bones about it...the sooner the better! Proping up and subsidising other countries is going to be the down fall of my green and pleasant land (now know as the garbage drop of Europe of peasants land!).

The EEC was formally known was for trade, not for this...
Nojas 4 | 110
1 Jul 2011 #38
That budget is highly likely to be voted down by Sweden, UK, Denmark and Holland. At least UK and Sweden is from what I have read angry about it. Sweden has for years fighting to stop the subsidies of agriculture, and now also threats to stop the budget since it doesn't stop big payouts for farmers. Unfortunatly political threats usually just stop at that, threatening.

Sweden, UK, Denmark is also angry because we are all proposed to pay even more in the new budget. Plus of course the UK would be severely damaged if the EU-taxation for financial transactions comes through, and of course for all EU-countries if the EU-VAT is also implemented. And in general, the swedish ministers (who has done a good job during the crisis, of which we have seen very little in Sweden) thinks that it is not right to up the EU-budget with 5% when people in europe is struggling to get a job and big cuts in public spending is being done in almost all countries. I fully agree with that. It's disgusting, but what to expect from incompetent old maoists like Barrosso?
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #39
How so?

Simply, Poland being outside the EU, being able to: produce food, for example, without EU quotas,
help our shipyards or other strategic branches of industry without them being closed, set our own tax
rates (VAT, fuel and alcohol taxes), free the economy from the burden of supporting at least 300
thousand superfluous administrative workers etc. etc. would certainly have better chances of growing
economically, than it does as a Polish Socialist European Republic (because that's what it is now.)

Generally, any country conducting a liberal free-market economic policies (or at least something similar
to them) has better chance to be economically successfull than a socialist republic inside a political
entity resembling, in some cases, Soviet Union (as far as economy is concerned.)

Is Poland equally worth member of EU like Germany, France...etc.?

It was a rhetorical question, wasn't it Natasa?

Was Kirghiz Soviet Socialist Republic equally worth member of USSR like Russian SSR or Ukrainian SSR?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #40
Erm...dream on! Look to Ukraine or Belorussland when you want to know how Poland would look like without the EU.

It's so easy to blame some faceless identity for all your own woes, isn't it.
I doubt your in-efficient, aged, unprofitable industries or shipyards could be saved in any functioning, market-capitalist environment.
For that you would need to become a communist country and stay broke!

There are so many countries in the EU like economic models....France differs from Germany differs from the UK differs from Greece and so on.

Who is hindering Poland to do what it thinks best? Mean Brussel???
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #41
Erm...dream on! Look to Ukraine or Belorussland when you want to know how Poland would look like without the EU.

;)

It's a good thing that you put a wink at the end of your post, because Poland joined the EU in 2004,
and I don't recall it looking like Ukraine or Belarus then :-)
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #43
Who is hindering Poland to do what it thinks best? Mean Brussel???

Well, we couldn't help our shipbuilding industry (like Germans and French did, and somehow their
shipyards weren't closed) on the basis of it being against EU policy, so our shipyards went bankrupt.

Polish economy is losing competitiveness because of high tax rates, that we cannot lower because
of the EU (VAT for example), and some time ago to liven up the economy, our government wanted
to lower the fuel excise tax... guess who said "no!"? :-)

Supporting 300 thousand superfluous administrative workers also doesn't help economy to grow,
our farming gets subsidies from the EU, but the EU quotas don't allow it to reach its full potential
etc. etc. and so on, and so on.

So, to sum things up, economic-wise being a member of EU is a disaster for Poland, BUT
as I said before, economy is not everything and Poland is ready to suffer economically to achieve
greater good - peace and unity in Europe.

Go out of EU!

Read the last fragment of my post again. We are ready to suffer economically for the Greater Good.
You should know by now that we are a noble nation - ready to make sacrifices for others!
Natasa 1 | 580
1 Jul 2011 #44
You should know by now that we are a noble nation

I will confirm that. Crow would have to say much more about it. (just a wild guess) Where is he?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
1 Jul 2011 #45
Polish economy is losing competitiveness because of high tax rates,

The tax rates are quite low in Poland actually, excluding VAT.

And whilst there is certainly a lot of bureaucracy from Brussels that hinders business, not all of it is bad some of it is positive and quite progressive. Plus there is the internal market that keeps on getting bigger, Poland would lose out a lot by not being part of the EU.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #46
Well, we couldn't help our shipbuilding industry (like Germans and French did, and somehow their
shipyards weren't closed) on the basis of it being against EU policy, so our shipyards went bankrupt.

And what would differ to when Poland would be all alone? Where would Poland get the money from to save un-profitable shipyards?

You know that there still is a difference between german/french and polish economies?
Do you think inefficient, aged and non-profitable shipyards could somehow survive in the german economy?

What competetiveness was lost after the fall of the iron curtain? I would be really interested to hear that...did you like living in a commie country with a commie economy?

Without the subsidies from the EU your farmers would starve to death...and what quotas are you talking about?

economy is not everything and Poland is ready to suffer economically to achieve
greater good - peace and unity in Europe.

You've got to be kidding!

...So, to sum things up, economic-wise being a member of EU is a disaster for Poland,....ready to make sacrifices for others!

Oh now I know....you are pulling my leg! You jester you!
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #47
The tax rates are quite low in Poland actually, excluding VAT.

Yeah, right.

Polish Tax Freedom Day (the first day of the year in which a nation as a whole has theoretically earned
enough income to fund its annual tax burden) was on 24th of June this year.

So, half a year every Polish citizen is working just to pay his/her tax!

To compare - in medieval Poland, peasants had to work maximum 4 days (most of the time
it was less) in a 6 day workweek for every łan (laneus), so considering the fact that most peasant
farms in medieval Poland had area of about 0.5 łan, they had to work for 2 days every week, therefore
their Tax Freedom Day was on the 30th April every year. Medieval peasants!

Anyway - look at the tax burden (combined taxes) of different European countries
(scroll down to "Tax Freedom Day around the world" and check the "% burden" column)...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

...Polish tax burden is in fact very high, considering that we are a developing economy
and our taxes should be much lower if we are to catch up with the rich countries of the EU.

And what would differ to when Poland would be all alone? Where would Poland get the money
from to save un-profitable shipyards?

We could spare some budget money to save this strategic branch of industry (just as Germany did.)

Do you think inefficient, aged and non-profitable shipyards could somehow survive in the german economy?

Well, apparently your shipyards are aged and non-profitable, if you had to help them with subsidies.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #48
...Polish tax burden is in fact very high, considering that we are a developing economy
and our taxes should be much lower if we are to catch up with the rich countries of the EU.

Poland should try a Soli...as Germany did to come up with the costs for the re-unification.
It worked!
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #49
Without the subsidies from the EU your farmers would starve to death

Hwhat???

Our farming is able to feed 120 million people in its full potential, and before Poland joined the EU
our farmers were hardly starving and I know, because many of my friends and family members
are large area farmers (over 300 hectares farms) and they say that for them the difference
is hardly visible.

...and what quotas are you talking about?

Erm... milk quotas for example, quotas for grain, meat and so on. Why have them at all?
Why can't every country produce and sell as much agricultural products as possible?

You've got to be kidding!

Not at all. There are more important things in life than economy, and Poland acknowledges this
fact by agreeing to suffer economically for the greater good of peaceful and united Europe. Ha!

did you like living in a commie country with a commie economy?

No, I didn't. That's why I like the EU economic policies less and less. They are drifting towards communism
with their centrally regulated economy, subsidies and tons of useless laws and regulations. We've seen
that before in Poland, between 1945 and 1989, and we DON'T like it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #50
Erm... milk quotas for example, quotas for grain, meat and so on. Why have them at all?
Why can't every country produce and sell as much agricultural products as possible?

Let's see what the farmers think about subsidies and quotas:

...Meanwhile, the majority of Polish dairy farmers are unhappy about a proposal to abandon the EU milk quota regulations.
They believe that an entirely free market is not entirely positive.

"Some kind of substitute for the regulations should stay," argues Edmund Borowski from major dairy cooperative Mlekpol.
...
Poland is the only country to oppose the abandonment of milk quotas.

They know that without quotas, regulations and subsidies lots of farmers in the whole of Europe would get broke.

Polish farmers on it's own without the commie shield anymore but without EU-help either would go broke by the hundred thousands.

No, I didn't. That's why I like the EU economic policies less and less. They are drifting towards communism

Then you would probably still have your prestigious but non-profit shipyards...and Poland would be still broke without any developing economy to speak of!

Ha!

Heh:)
Torq
1 Jul 2011 #51
Let's see what the farmers think about subsidies and quotas:

From your link...

Polish farmers are set to travel to Brussels where they will submit a petition to the European Parliament
calling for equal treatment for all members of the EU's farming community.

Well, certainly if the quotas and subsidies are to remain, then it's only fair to trear all members of the
EU's farming community equally in this regards. Which doesn't change the fact that the entire idea
of subsidising farming is flawed.

They know that without quotas, regulations and subsidies lots of farmers in the whole of Europe would get broke.

Bollox. Our farming was always quite strong, and before we joined the EU in 2004 it was more than
able to feed Poland (and two other countries the size of Poland.) If some farmers are going to get
broke, it will be those who, in the system of subsidized farming, get lower subsidies - and that's why
they are protesting.

Polish farmers on it's own without the commie shield anymore but without EU-help either would go broke by the hundred thousands.

There was no "commie shield" in the years 1989-2004 and somehow they didn't "go broke by the hundred thousands" :-)

Then you would probably still have your prestigious but non-profit shipyards...and Poland would be still broke without any developing economy to speak of!

Not prestigious, but "strategic" and they would stand on their feet eventually (just like your shipyards
did AFTER RECEIVING SUBSIDIES FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT), and Poland would be no more broke than
it is today.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #52
Yup...polish farmers protested AGAINST the scrapping of the milk-quotas what was about to be settled in mean Brussels.

Farming without subsidies is just not possible in Europe, flawed or not!

There was no "commie shield" in the years 1989-2004 and somehow they didn't "go broke by the hundred thousands" :-)

Oh please, you are talking with an Ossie here. The economies of all ex-commie countries were already destroyed by 1989. Our countries looked from bad to worse....don't try to paint me an rosy image of a functioning economy in Poland!

Not prestigious, but "strategic" and they would stand on their feet eventually (just like your shipyards
did AFTER RECEIVING SUBSIDIES FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT), and Poland would be no more broke than

Not on it's own, no!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdańsk_Shipyard

...Gdansk shipyards have fallen on hard times. Once a place of work for over 20,000 people, the Gdansk shipyards provide only 2,200 jobs today.[6] The European Union has backed a restructuring plan for the shipyard.[7][8]

Torq
1 Jul 2011 #53
*rolling eyes*

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, BB. You are so enthusiastic about everything EU
that it blinds you sometimes to the obvious. That's quite all right - luckily, there are enough of common
sense citizens of the EU (like my humble self) to keep the hyper-enthusiasts at bay.

In any case, Poland is ready to suffer for the greater common good of Europe, as she always was.

Over and out.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #54
You are so enthusiastic about everything EU
that it blinds you sometimes to the obvious.

Well...I have numbers, stats and even the polish farmers on my side. What have you got?

;)

Over and out.

*waves after Torqi*
legend 3 | 664
1 Jul 2011 #55
Erm...dream on! Look to Ukraine or Belorussland when you want to know how Poland would look like without the EU.

Poland was developing faster than those countries before it even joined the EU.
Considering Poland is closer to the heart of Europe it makes trading easier as well.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,063
1 Jul 2011 #56
Poland was developing faster than those countries before it even joined the EU.

Any link to that?

Considering Poland is closer to the heart of Europe it makes trading easier as well.

Trading what? Take any product from Poland and show me how they would fare in the EU-market better from the outside.
As I said, look to Ukraine and other ex-commie, non-EU countries for comparisons.

Over and out! ;)
sobieski 107 | 2,128
1 Jul 2011 #57
Simply, Poland being outside the EU, being able to: produce food, for example, without EU quotas,

The farmers would shoot you, I think..taking away the farming subsidies...Producing food for sure.. selling to whom and for which price?
Of course if you divide every grant by the population of a country you always end up with low figures. That is doubletalk.
What matters what these subsidies enable Poland to do.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Jul 2011 #58
Any link to that, BB? Yeah, I think legend would have been working really hard to contribute to that state of affairs ;) ;) There's your link :)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
1 Jul 2011 #59
massively gain in the coming years from the Common Agricultural Policy

They would gain much more If there was free market instead of CAP.

What would you trade?

The same what we trade now.

So you think that Poland would modernize and develop the same without these funds?

Develop what ? Poland has ****** infrastructure because it simply is a poor country, which can't afford thousands kms of highways, fast trains etc. Building that with external money will only slow down development of Poland. We will have to later spend billions to maintain it. The right thing to do would be lower the taxes, let the business grow and once the country is getting richer then gradually spend more on infrastructure. That would be real development. Now this is artificial "development", which will end up like in Portugal and Greece.

Look to Ukraine or Belorussland when you want to know how Poland would look like without the EU.

Right, because before 2004 Poland looked exactly like Belarus and Ukraine.

Without the subsidies from the EU your farmers would starve to death...

Because as we all now, before 1st May 2004 Polish farmers used to starve to death daily.

Butt, you've been totally brainwashed by EUnuchs. You suck it up as easily as your grandpas did with those bul*shiites of moustache gay.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
1 Jul 2011 #60
They would gain much more If there was free market instead of CAP.

More likely lose out badly since farming here isn't exactly efficient.

Building that with external money will only slow down development of Poland.

One of the sillier things I've read here - without EU money (not external - Poland is a full member as you well know) there is nothing to suggest that anything more than a few minor projects would go ahead, and those badly.

Butt, you've been totally brainwashed by EUnuchs. You suck it up as easily as your grandpas did with those bul*shiites of moustache gay.

A very strange thing to say.

Paid your share of the EU subsidy back yet, as you promised to?


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