The best Poland ever?

Remember back at the time when the decision for the North Stream was made? Do you remember the treatment of Germany at the hands of the potatoe heads ruling your government? Do you think it wrong that Germany didn't feel it could rely on Poland???

With North Stream we don't need to rely on anybody else at all anymore...and no more paying fees either.
In the end it's cheaper and much more reliable...how can you blame us?
Sometimes your argumentation runs more around like the pipeline over your land being a hostage for german good behaviour, all political...nothing to do with economical questions.

I don't know the realities now but Germany had for a long time forced payment for Polish (or any foreign) trucks entering it's borders

maybe it some ethical arguement that Poland should not demand payment for the gas transferred (btw I think Polish side contributed to the maintainance of the pipeline) to Germany through its territory but from the financial point of view I bet it is even more expensive to pump gas (and maintain the pipeline) under Baltic sea - just care to post how much the money Poland charged for the transfer through its territory influenced/s the price of the NG in Germany (I would be surprised if it exceeds one per cent)


the agreement on the Nord Stream was signed before PiS created any kind of government (before Polish elections)- all you come up with are lies seems to me - btw in what matters Poland proved unreliable for Germany - in trying to force hegemonistic position for 'core EU' countries??

btw I once (live) heard Mr Poettinger (or Pottinger) say in a political panel on the German TV how much 'New Europe' costs the 'Old Europe' -

- it was 26 euros yearly per citizen of the Old Europe - (I can understand enough German believe me) (it was 2007 I believe) - now I wonder if you know who Mr Pottinger was

no, I don't agree and I think that was just a political statement, nothing more and nothing less.
I'm not going elaborate on that, as any serious discussion on PF is being hijacked by the two happy trolls, harmine - pests.

It's no ethical argument at all.
It's common that middle countries charge for allowing their country used for pipelines etc.
And in the end after the North Stream is build it will be cheaper without all that regular extra fee (it isn't only Poland which is charging Germany for their pipelines, you know).

YOU make a political argument out of it...accusing Germany of a second Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and what not...unable to see the hard economical facts behind the decision. Or do you really think german business is somehow willing to pay millions only to be "mean" against Poles?

"It's the economy stupid!" (as Clinton used to say)

econ.cam.ac.uk/dae/repec/cam/pdf/cwpe1051.pdf

now prove it - give me links - how much did it cost to transfer gas through Poland (including transfer fee) and how much will it cost to pump it on the Baltic seabed (including the pipeline maintanance) - hard facts are that the undersea pipeline will cost at least 4 times higher to build than a all-land route (and these were official estimates - and since then they went billions over the budget)

care to make any comments on Mr Pottinger's statement ??? read a few posts above

Now here's one for you, it's about guaranteeing the supply. Less partners in a business relationship means more reliability. If it could be done cheaper, Poland should build an overground route....much like they're doing with the Ukraine....

so you have proved yourself not correct on the statement of the cost (you have claimed it should be cheaper) - I stand to what I claimed: it was Germany's political decision to have a pipeline with Russia (not purely economical as you claim)

See above

I'm not sure about polish business but german isn't politic at all...believe me! Why should we invest in expensive and unreliable pipelines when we can have something better? Or have you forgotten about the ukrainian-russian payment spats?

I don't get your accusations at all...

It isn't as if Nord-Stream would be the only new pipeline Germany is investing in.

Poland couldn't build a pipeline without Russians agreeing to it - wouldn't it end on the Latvian border somewhere??? - you don't just build pipelines everywhere and then wait till someone cares to pump some gas into it

I don't think Poland is building any natural gas pipeline with Ukraine - I don't know if Poland contributed to the Brody-Odessa project (a crude oil pipeline - not a natural gas one) financially - there were some plans to extend it to Płock and Gdańsk


yeah, one should be a believer - you have proven yourself incorrect on a couple of issues (the price of the gas transfer through Nord-Stream will only be slightly more expensive than through Yamal pipeline i.e. the one going through Poland - you claimed it will be cheaper) - so why should I believe you


Nord-Stream will be at least (official figures) 4 times more expensive than a all-land route one - since then it has gone far over the planned budget - i have seen some estimates that it will actually be 10 time more expensive to build than the land alternative

unreliable pipelines? hmm? are land pipelines more unrealiable than the undersea ones


have you seen any Russian-Poland payment spats before?? Latvia and Lithuania have proved themselves to be equally or even more financially responsible? you just don't care to treat us as partners? why should we treat you as such

Oil and gas doesn't just come from Russia.


That's a choice left to Poland on whether it wants to pursue that route. Brody-Plock would mean bypassing Russia all together...and provide access to Turkmen gas...you know, where the Russians get their stuff from. There was also a plan to build an underwater pipeline to Denmark to link up to Norwegian gas and oil. Again, a Polish decision.

For the third time...read the link I posted...there it's all for you to read!


Get a grip! It's exactly these tantrums which made your pipelines so unreliable...you see the pipelines as a political tool...we don't!

Odessa-Brody- and perhaps further Płock, Gdańsk is (and will) not a gas pipeline but an oil one- so no Turkmen gas will ever flow through it (btw there is no guarantee it will ever be extended to Poland - at the moment it pumps oil in the opposite direction i.e. to the Black Sea

there were some vague ideas of transporting LNG from postulated terminals in Georgia than pumping it through Ukraine to Poland - the problem is at the source: Russians bribe and/or threat Central Asiatic countries including Azerbaijan into pumping their gas through their network and abandoning projects to deliver gas to Europe through Turkey and the Balkans


the link clearly reads - transfer of the gas through the Nord Stream will be more expensive than through the Yamal pipeline (ie. the main pipeline Russian gas flows through Poland to Germany) including transfer fees charged by the countries involved (Belarus and Poland)

this will be achieved by paying at least as 4 times more money (possibly 10 times more) than by building a new land route (for example through Latvia, Lithuania and Poland) - btw I think if Germany insisted Latvia and Lithuania would surrender the idea of tapping into the new pipeline

If a pipeline can be built to pump oil, why can't one be built to pump gas?


Quite a bit of gas flows through Georgia and Turkey and is then tankered over the Black Sea. Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and Azerbaijan are actively looking for ways to sell their oil and gas without having to rely on Gazprom to play the middleman.

Poland needs to get off it's haunches and get after it....but, in reality, it's not that big of a concern as the supply will always be next door one way or the other.

Using a strategic simulation model of European gas supply, Holz et al. (2009)
find that Russian gas exports to Europe until 2025 would not exceed export
capacity through the existing routes (i.e. 180 bcm/a through Ukraine and
Belarus)5.

this is an interesting find in the link you provided BB

It's not that hard to understand, isn't it!

Just read the damned thing....

hmm what do you mean - have we used the Yamal pipeline to exert any pressure on Germany? - have we stolen any gas that was meant for Germany?? - our part of pipeline was completely reliable - it was Belarus and Ukraine that were unreliable - what do you mean by unreliable

it conveniently omits the merits of a new land route (Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus) - it only compares the values of Nord Stream against the present situation - a conveniently omits many other things (like the cost of laying the pipeline)

Belarus and Ukraine is unreliable...at the time of the decision making the Kaczinskies were unreliable...the transit fees were to reliable...

Why do you have a problem with a sovereign country cutting out factors it has no control over through a direct connection with it's supplier?

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!

Kaczynskis (spelling please) were not in power at the moment when the decision was made (summer of the 2005) and it could be hardly speculated then that they would get power - however Poland under Kaczyńskis was not unreliable in terms of gas transfer to Germany so your ******** proves to have no foundation -

the pumping through the new pipeline will be more expensive than the pumping through the Yamal pipeline including national transit fees (the article you quote clearly states this) - i will point it out untill you get bored - I will not

in building Nord Stream you prove to ignore Polish concerns so you don't treat us as partners - why should we treat you as such - btw Germany insisting on so called proportional voting power in the EU also clearly acted against Polish interests so Kaczynskis reacted (Lech Kaczynski was blackmailed during the negotiations)

Umm...excuse me but I think I know better what a catastrophe these potatoe heads had been for the german-polish relations...and please read the study if you don't believe in german hard business decisions.

.


How so?

What about german energy concerns?


ROFL
He made himself and Poland look ridiculous! And the vision of such nutters having our gas in their hands to use as a tool against us was enough to fire on the search for better solutions!

They for sure didn't treat Germany as a partner or ally...

namely???


German energy concerns would be equally addressed by building a land pipeline as suggested in many of my posts - unless you don't treat Lithuania, Latvia and Poland as reliable - Poland proved to be reliable (in terms of gas supplies)even under 'those monsters' Kaczyńskis

How so?

What's better than a direct connection to the supplier? What if Poland decides to cut the pipeline because of some Nazi-accusation? What if the transit fees reach new heights...it's a nice income for the budget, isn't it?

What if another country, doesn't have to be Poland, get's problems with Russia...using the pipeline as a weapon?
Nothing new here...

Do you really begrudge Germany wanting to get rid of all these question marks? Again... WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM???

PS: The pipeline will be done in July...the first gas will be distributed by October this year. It's time Poles move on.. ;)

what nazi accusations? did anything lead to Poland shutting the pipeline? did not Poland prove to be reliable gas transit country??? you are being paranoid here I would say -

give the data about those transit fees - how much do they account for in the price of gas in Germany - 1 per cent? I doubt it is even a whole 1 per cent - what heights are you talking about? - I know you have an agenda with this Nord Stream thing for whatever reason

name those nasty mistreatment of Germany by Kaczyńskis btw - cause you seem to conveniently circle around inconvenient questions

btw had Germany insisted Lithuania and Latvia could perhaps agree not to tap into the new land route pipeline - but Germany traded political decisions for Russian contracts

btw Russia itself is a concern for Germany energy supplies as its own gas budget allows for very little margin at the moment (so if there is some unusually severe and long winter in Russia we may all be short of gas or Russian people will be freezing

Heh:) Says the one accusing Germany of a kind of betrayal against Poland? Says the one imagining Russians stopping delivery???

;)


My "agenda" is to bring some economical pragmatism to all your hysterical " a new Molotov-Ribbentrop pact against us Poles" yadda.


spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490994,00.html


spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,489510,00.html


Just google, the net is still full of it....


The Nord-Stream is only one pipeline...we will still using the old pipelines too (also those from Poland) and invest in other newly build...it's called diversifying. Taking into account shortages and a heightened need for even more energy.

where did I say betrayal - I say you are not treating us as partners - then you expect Poland to treat you as partners

halldor2.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/the-russian-gas-deficit-is-it-real/

- Russias gas budget margin

a quote from the link - As a result of this new situation, during the winter of 2007/2008, Gazprom almost totally exhausted its underground gas reservoirs.

How so?

You for sure seem to accuse Germans to in some way to betray Poland only because Germany builds a pipeline direct to Russia...

What has that to do with "treating Poland as partners"?

you call it mistreatment I call it a just a couple of articles - did the interests of German business in Poland suffer? did German minority in Poland suffer (the genuine German minority in Poland is not much more than 150 000 I guess)? where there any government-organized riots in Poland? have any German people been phisically harmed because of three or four remarks by Lech or Jaroslaw Kaczyński

ROFL
I can ask you the same questions regarding Russia....(another country the potatoe heads liked to antagonize).

Still what do you mean exactly with "not treating Poland as partner"? Do you mean only a pipeline over polish lands would show true partnership?

You are not serious, aren't you....

partners are considering each other's concerns and interests - Germany does not seem to consider Polish interests and concerns - in many fields an agreement/compromise can be achieved - there was enough goodwill on the Polish side even in the times of Kaczyńskis - still Germany in many cases wanted to have it their way (like say have a pipeline under the Baltic for contracts and concessions in Russia or that new brilliant European Constitution - Germany claimed Europe needs strong leaders - are Mr Van Rompuy or Mrs Ashton strong leaders? - I just think Germany wanted to have more control over Europe (in agreement with France and Italy) )


care to comment???

Yeah...as seen in the broad understanding of you to acknowledge Germany's energy concerns!


How so?

The old pipelines are still working, aren't they! There nothing has changed.


Well, that is far off the topic...


As I thought....your screaming about the pipeline has nothing to do with the facts but with "fighting german dominance" or whatever....as in true potatoe head spirit!

The fourth Reich is rising!! muhaha *insert devilish laughter*


Well, the article is of 2008, now is 2011 and I never heard of russian problems to deliver.
And once we paid Germany expects to get the gas so or so...*shrugs*

Don't tell me you are honestly interested if and how Germany get's it's energy...as if you care!

we will see how long they will serve cause - the existing pipelines are enough at the moment - on the other hand Nord Stream can thoroughly replace them in terms of capacity - so we will see if the existing pipelines will still serve


I don't wish anyone to run out of fuel or not to have enough money to buy it - well strategic German-Russian partnership and the new Nord Stream can actually prevent shortages in Germany even if Russia is short of gas - other countries will most probably suffer then - still you are siding with the devil - if Russia is not neoimperialistic then I don't know what you call it - remember those journalists that dared to write truth about Chechnya wars (like Mr Politkovskaya)


no I say talking about things and trying to reach compromise is - Germany never tried to