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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 9


jon357 74 | 21,937
19 Jan 2024 #211
Your socialist take

Centrist and fairly universal if anything.

not the American Way

So what? The 'American way' doesn't even work in America. The rest of the world does things differently and has no reason to follow the habits of one country.

Short-termism never works. The world is shrinking by the day and ensuring prosperity in society takes investment and very long-term careful planning. And that does involve military expenditure in order to maintain global security for future trade and markets.
Alien 18 | 4,845
19 Jan 2024 #213
my barf bag

Maybe a Vomex suppository or a hot water bottle will suffice?
Novichok 5 | 7,853
19 Jan 2024 #214
I prefer more natural ways...like reading jon's posts...
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,024
19 Jan 2024 #215
@jon357
The American Way, certainly works in the USA. Work hard, and be smart and you can have a great life. Traditional values people are light years ahead of leftist socialists because of their values and way of living. But thanks for making the point, the rest of the world does things differently. And therefore, no American has to support it. Short termism is Ukraine continuing this war. Z is fetting tens of thousands killed for no reason. Russia is not going to give back the land. And Ukraine is not going to take it back without full mobilization and long range missiles.

The US doesnt need partners for its trade security. It is the rest of the world that needs the US navy. The world isnt shrinking, it is growing futher apart by ideology. It is the ideology of traditional values that has always, and will always win. And that in the end is the foundation of the American Way, it is why Europe wanted to be free from the Nazi's and USSR. If you dont like the American Way, there is a turd world country waiting for you somewhere to call home, perhaps someplace in the Congo.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
19 Jan 2024 #216
It's always good to read your posts, PAK, for what's in them and your patience with PF a-holes.
jon357 74 | 21,937
19 Jan 2024 #217
The American Way, certainly works in the USA

It doesn't.

Look at the gap between rich and poor.

from the Nazi's

From which Nazi's what?

If you dont {sic} like the American Way, there is a turd world country waiting for you

Most of us prefer Europe, the most developed part of the world.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
19 Jan 2024 #218
Most of us prefer Europe, the most developed part of the world.

Polite and utterly stupid usually go hand in hand ... Ask Swedish rape victims for details.
cms neuf 1 | 1,782
19 Jan 2024 #219
How are "traditional" Americans light years ahead of Europeans.

I presume you are talking about old whites who drive pickups and say Maam.

Are their living standards higher than Europeans? Are they healthier ? They probably have bigger houses and cars but shorter lives and more illness.

Anyway nothing to do with Udmurtia so stop spamming this thread
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #220
Why is Iran (the head of the snake supporting the terrorist groups) being ignored?

Because Iran is much stronger than the typical target of American war adventurism.

Iran has 90M people, and a rather mountainous territory of around 1.6M sq km (Poland is only 300K sq km).

If America needed 500,000 men to go into Iraq and occupy it, imagine how many men you need to deal with Iran.

The only reason Saudi Arabia is richer than Iran, is because Iran has been living under sanctions ever since the Islamic Revolution (more than 40 years now). Also, in the 1980s, the West tried to destroy Iran by funding Saddam Hussein with billions of dollars during the Iran-Iraq War, and that seriously retarded their growth.

Saudi Arabia cannot even launch a potato into the stratosphere. Meanwhile, Iran is manufacturing drones, which even Russia and the United States do not have. Iran is manufacturing missiles, that even countries like Turkey and Germany do not develop. Iran manufactures cars, pharmaceuticals, and a million things for the construction industry.

Persians are not lazy and stupid Arabs, but one of the oldest nations on Earth.
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #221
Poland is only 300K sq km

312.7k, thank you. Still larger than Italy, as populous as Canada and richer than Taiwan. :)

Besides, as any experienced woman would tell you - it's not the size that counts!

Persians are not lazy and stupid Arabs, but one of the oldest nations on Earth.

Indeed. Taking into account all the sanctions, it is admirable what they achieved. Wise and ancient nation (and more modern than many people suspect).
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #222
more modern than many people suspect

I see them in Doha, in Istanbul, and at Moscow Sheremetyevo - when they line up for boarding at their gate.

Women have dyed blonde hair (often), wear designer jeans, and all have the latest iPhone. I imagine they cover their heads when they are disembarking in Iran. They are also very beautiful - at least to my eye. More so than Hejazi girls, and maybe on the same level as Shami girls. Unfortunately, they seem to be pretty hardcore about plastic surgeries in Iran. Especially at Istanbul airport, you can see dozens of them walking around with bandaged faces.

The men are.... a little bit less attractive - resembling our Azeris and Armenians more. Kind of loud and pushy.

Also, they drink. Not as much as we do, but they drink.

They absolutely destroy the Duty Free shops. Like all Middle Easterners, they seem to shower in perfume. Also, cosmetics - huge amounts.
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #223
... also, they have underground rail systems even in provincial cities, advanced industry, very decent farming and science, but what I respect them the most for is that they had the balls and brains to kick foreign influence our of their country. Their country is their own. If only I could say the same about Poland.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #224
had the balls and brains to kick foreign influence our of their country.

It certainly cost them dearly. Under the Shah, they were developing faster than Turkey, and would probably be considerably more wealthy than Turkey at this point given their enormous hydrocarbon reserves and large population.

Their Islamic Revolution was a pretty big pain in the butt, not just for the West, but for us as well. It's why Saddam, got help from both the US and USSR. One of the rare cases where Moscow and Washington cooperated against a common enemy. The Iranians made life miserable for us in Afghanistan, and in other places as well (Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Ethiopia).

However, it looks like they've seriously moderated the level of Islamist fanaticism since then, and just want to live normally now.

I also respect that it's one of the very few Muslim democracies in the world. Malaysia, Turkey, Indonesia - maybe only ones that have more control over their government.
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #225
It certainly cost them dearly.

In the long run they won. Independence, and I mean real independence (not just being a separate country on a map), is invaluable. It ensures that in the future you will be the host in your own country, your resources will be your own, and your children won't be only hired hands in the country of their fathers.
mafketis 36 | 10,860
19 Jan 2024 #226
they had the balls and brains to kick foreign influence our of their country.

Islam is not indigenous to Iran..... so..... not _all_ foreign influence.....

I know a couple of Iranians in real life who hate, hate HATE the current government (and its tendency to beat young women to death if they show their hair in public among many other ).

In a lot of ways, Iran is a bit like Poland in the 1970s early 80s.... everyone knows the system isn't viable but no one knows how to get past it. The big problem is that there's no section of the Iranian ruling class ready to throw its lot in with the people..
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #227
Islam is not indigenous to Iran...

Well, I suppose you could, in the same way, argue that Christianity is not indigenous to Poland; and Islam was brought to Iran in about 650 AD - more than 300 years before Poland became officially Christian.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #228
In the long run they won.

Yes, I understand your line of thinking. However, do you appreciate just how fast they were developing? Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

During his 37-year-long rule, Iran spent billions of dollars' worth on industry, education, health, and military spending, and enjoyed economic growth rates exceeding the United States, the United Kingdom, and France. Likewise, the Iranian national income rose 423 times over, and the country saw an unprecedented rise in per capita income-which reached the highest level at any point in Iran's history-and high levels of urbanization. By 1977, Pahlavi's focus on defense spending, which he saw as a means to end foreign powers' intervention in the country, had culminated in the Iranian military standing as the world's fifth-strongest armed force

I mean real independence

Here you are absolutely correct. Then, it was Iran that was by far the largest buyer of American-made weapons (now it is Saudi Arabia). In fact, Iran was buying so many American weapons, that it alarmed the United States Congress to such an extent, that it found it necessary to strengthen a 1968 law on arms exports in 1976 - renaming it the Arms Export Control Act. Just within a few year period, shortly before the collapse, Iran bought $8 billion worth of American weapons (in 1970s dollars). That's why they still fly their F-14 Tomcats and Bell helicopters (which they have learned to maintain themselves).

This dependence on American military kit, immediately exploded in their face as soon as the Islamic Revolution happened. This demonstrates, that buying weapons from someone else, is not just a commercial transaction, but a light form of vassalitude.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
19 Jan 2024 #229
is not just a commercial transaction, but a light form of vassalitude.

...and that's why one day Russia will be grateful for the warmongers' sanctions.
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #230
@Bobko

Hmm... interesting. I didn't know that they were developing THAT fast under Pahlavi. Thanks for the info!

Still, I think that what's most important for them is that in 50 years, 100 years and most likely 300 years (if humanity survives that long without annihilating itself) is that Iran will still be ruled by and inhabited by Iranians.
mafketis 36 | 10,860
19 Jan 2024 #231
Iran will still be ruled by and inhabited by Iranians.

Iran has a big fertility problem....

statista.com/statistics/294115/iran-fertility-rate/
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #232
statista.com/statistics/294115/iran-fertility-rate

1.7 is still better than any European country with the exception of Turkey, France and Ireland.
cms neuf 1 | 1,782
19 Jan 2024 #233
Russell is back in the supermarket and even treats himself to a can of Chinese rip off Coke LOL

youtube.com/watch?v=gIk98joQ7WM

An impressive range of sprats and cured fish, starts in the 30th minute.

More than 100 types of "cheese" from that well known mecca of the cheese world - Udmurtia !
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #234
...and that's why one day Russia will be grateful for the warmongers' sanctions.

Historically, Russia made all its weapons anyway. It's not like Europeans or Americans would sell us anything.

However, under Defense Minister Serdyukov, in the 2010s, Russia made a big 180 and started buying Western weapons. Initially, Serdyukov said that this was intended as kick in the ass to the Russian defense industry, that got lazy through having no competition. A quote from him:

"The Ministry of Defense cannot buy products that do not meet world prices, world requirements for quality, or characteristics of military products."

It started with Italian Iveco armored personnel carriers. Then with Cummins diesel engines and Allisson Transmissions, for various Russian-produced APCs. Then it kept getting bigger, until finally he contracted billion dollar Mistral-class ships from France. One was to be built in France, and the other 3 in Russia. This was the point at which the military industrial complex really started moaning non-stop, and complaining to Putin.

As it turned out, it was a disastrous policy. After the annexation of Crimea, France sanctioned Russia, and refused to hand over the ship. We then mutually agreed it could be sold to Egypt, together with the marine variants of KA-52 gunships which were supposed to be based on the ship. The Italians and Americans also stopped shipping parts, and new kit. After wasting close to a decade trying to "stimulate our MIC", we were back to square one with them being sole vendor for all kit.

If you want to be independent, you can't depend on people that can turn off the supply if they suddenly feel you are misbehaving.



jon357 74 | 21,937
19 Jan 2024 #235
It's not like Europeans or Americans would sell us anything.

Many of your submarines during the Cold War were made in Barrow.

When I was a teen, it was a time when there were stories about visitors to Moscow swapping jeans for caviar, vodka etc which surprised me a bit since my first pair of jeans were nicked from a Soviet sub that was being fitted out there and were made in the Soviet Union.
mafketis 36 | 10,860
19 Jan 2024 #236
1.7 is still better than any European country

I dont' know the distribution across ethnic groups, Persians are a small majority but dozens of other nationalities live there as well... they generally accept Persian as a national lingua franca but if one starts growing more than others....
Torq 5 | 667
19 Jan 2024 #237
@Bobko

Send the reminder to your man Putin, Bobi. He started it, so it's only fair that he should finish it too.

I was, of course, joking. We all know that a peace treaty at the moment, without any decisive resolution one way or another, would be nothing but a kind of Тильзитский мир... a передышка if you will. Difficult matter, dobri brate.

Unless both sides managed to find a constructive solution regarding a comprehensive future safety system. But there's so many question marks and floating factors, so many conflicting interests; a veritable Gordian Knot.

Oh, well... I better stick to Pol-Shorpy and annoying Novi and Pawian. I'm out of my depth in this thread.
jon357 74 | 21,937
19 Jan 2024 #238
I don't know the distribution across ethnic groups,

Quite mixed. Lots of Azeris, Tadjiks, Kurds and in Khuzestan there's a lot of Arab Iranians. I'd guess that the birth rate is higher in Khuzestan than in, say, the capital.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
19 Jan 2024 #239
It's not like Europeans or Americans would sell us anything.

You can't imagine how much I want Russia to succeed in standing up to the Western globalist scum and, specifically, to NATO - that disgusting snake that can drag us into a war with Russia.

If you ever feel compelled to drop a nuke, go for the UK first. I can't stand these idiots and their mutants.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
19 Jan 2024 #240
I'm out of my depth in this thread.

Of course not)

Unless both sides managed to find a constructive solution regarding a comprehensive future safety system.

At present, Russia is not being invited to peace talks. Instead, Ukraine gathers 80+ other countries in Switzerland, and engages in three-day stream of consciousness sessions.

At present, there is a presidential decree in place in Ukraine, which makes it illegal to carry out negotiations with Russia. Zelensky implemented it, in the weeks following their rapid Kharkov offensive. At that time, the Ukrainians felt their victory was only a matter of time (and Western weapon deliveries). Sort of without impact domestically, it was primarily intended as a further piece of theater to intimidate Putin. Now, removing it may risk showing some new weakness on the part of Ukraine - so it stays in place.

If the other side says "negotiations with Russia are meaningless", what formula can we then discuss?


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