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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 9


Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #61
Why would we voluntarily join the Russian Federation?

Who's talking about joining the Russian Federation? Are Hungary or Slovakia parts of Russian Federation?
OP Crnogorac3 4 | 820
16 Jan 2024 #62
twitter.com/dr_duchesne/status/1746224808793129253
jon357 74 | 21,940
16 Jan 2024 #63
Your copy and paste from here: twitter.com/dr_duchesne/status/1746224808793129253

Is a load of crapola.

Ukrainian culture

Ukraine can choose any culture it wishes to align to and can make alliances with whomsoever they choose.

the Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979 described the United States as "the Great Satan"

He was happy enough to seek refuge in a western NATO-member country when he was being persecuted, wasn't he...
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,024
16 Jan 2024 #64
@mafketis
I understand strategic concepts and critical thinking better than you do obviously. Making a few thousand locals scared only makes them want Vlad to destroy Ukraine more, which keeps Vlad safe politically. When it comes to "knowing" your enemy, historical and common psychological references only go so far. Followers flock to their leaders in times of fear, and that is just a fact. But who cares about the roles of leaders and followers when there are so many brilliant critical thinkers here.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
16 Jan 2024 #65
Who's talking about joining the Russian Federation?

What exactly are you talking about? Except for some form of wish-washy what-ifs?
-----

Making a few thousand locals scared only makes them want Vlad to destroy Ukraine more, which keeps Vlad safe politically.

Which most of them want anyway. failure to protect Russia on Russian territory makes Vlad lose his face and that undermines his grip on the people.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
16 Jan 2024 #66
it's the fault of russians who passively accept every terrible thing their government does,

As opposed to the Brits and Americans who actively reject their government's welcoming the invading scum ... by saying nothing.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,024
16 Jan 2024 #67
@Ironside
Vlad isnt going to lose face over drone attacks where most are shot down. It makes them support his war in Ukraine more. His support is at an all time high now. While Z cannot say the same thing. Those drones should be used to take out Russian soldiers, especially when Ukraine is running out of supplies.
Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #68
What exactly are you talking about?

I am talking about reconsidering the default anti-Russian mode of Polish foreign politics. Of course, in the current circumstances and with the current Russian government in power it might be difficult, but we should at least try to imitate Orban in some respects, like conducting the best policies for his country and not taking anything except the good of his country as a set in stone dogma. No wearing blinkers, no tunnel vision, no putting ourselves in the postition of "servants of the Ukrainian nation" (or any other nation for that matter). Supporting Ukraine? Sure, but it's not some dogma set in stone. The EU membership? Sure, but it's not some dogma set in stone.
Korvinus 2 | 457
16 Jan 2024 #69
but we should at least try to imitate Orban in some respects

Please, enough of this retarded take. Currently Orban fellates Putin. He vetoed 50 bln aid of Ukraine but this veto of his can be worked around anyway, so this is just for show.

And the EU negotiation process with Ukraine will last many years. Unless Orban wishes to emulate Lukashenko, he won't be in gov anymore when talks conclude.

Orban liquidated all media that were critical of him and had a mass audience, by either buying them out or cutting their financing. He's not actively killing and jailing journalists like in Russia or China, but this is Europe, he'd become more of a pariah in the EU than he already is. So far he's satisfied to just take away their voice.

Orban actively fights against civil society, but somehow cannot be arsed to limit the scope of Russian intelligence operations in Hungary, hence Budapest is now the Russian centre in NATO&EU. That's why NATO already limits intel it shares with Hungary.

Fortunately, NATO has already learned Orban allowed Russian intelligence to run its operations in Budapest. Exchange of classified intel has basically ceased between the rest of NATO and Hungary because everyone knows Hungary is unwilling to protect its secrets.

Even more fortunately, NATO is not similar to EU, you don't need unanimity to make most of the decisions. Which means the Alliance can act as needed and Hungary can't really do much to stop it.
mafketis 36 | 10,864
16 Jan 2024 #70
enough of this retarded take. Currently Orban fellates Putin

It's hard to love russian culture and not accept a lot of russian social mores.... which are disastrous for Poland....

due to a Ukraine drone attack

It's my understanding that Ukraine attacks military targets in border regions.... why should Ukraine be stopped from that?
johnny reb 47 | 7,057
16 Jan 2024 #71
A new poll taken of the Russian people finds that the majority want out of Ukraine now.
Cut the losses and come home.
Putin's ego and pride will never let that happen.
Sweden and Germany have told their citizens to prep for WW3.
Putin is going to challenge NATO sooner or later and NATO is running out of time to stop him.
Velund 1 | 582
16 Jan 2024 #72
Can you afford to eat eggs for breakfast, every day?

No problem.

most people in Belarus speak Russian instead of Belarussian

Not "instead" but "in addition to". Belarussian is a family and literature language, Russian is businness language.
johnny reb 47 | 7,057
16 Jan 2024 #73
Here is a one-minute news media video of Poland that we are being fed here in the U.S.A.
Putin is putting up billboards that say Russian borders do not end raising fears of invasion.

msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-billboard-raises-invasion-fears-russia-s-borders-do-not-end/ar-AA1n3WX0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=ENTPSP&cvid=b7cb521a9e7f4259992964abafe2450c&ei=11
Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #74
Please, enough of this retarded take.

I said "some respects"; we definitely shouldn't do everything that Orban does, but more independence and less dogmatism in foreign politics would certainly be beneficial for Poland.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,024
16 Jan 2024 #75
msn..

Thats a photo from Russia not Poland.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
16 Jan 2024 #76
Interesting how geopolitics might have differed now if the Turk/Mongol Khanates has won rather than Russia

First of all, they did win.

They were pretty enlightened people. After the initial onslaught, the burden of the occupation was comparatively light. The actual break up, happened without practically any bloodshed at all. The event is known as The Great Stand on the Ugra River. Here's a brief from Wiki:

After Ivan III stopped paying tribute to the Horde, Akhmat Khan led an army towards Moscow, leading to a standoff between the two armies on the banks of the river. Akhmat Khan waited for his Lithuanian reinforcements to arrive, but they never did, with one Mongol attempt to cross the river failing due to Russian fire, leading to Akhmat Khan to retreat. Both armies departed after little fighting.

The most likely result, is that you would have had an even larger Eurasian polity than Russia emerging in the aftermath. Russia subverted much of the administrative units of the Golden Horde, then Great Horde, and finally Chagatai Horde. We just integrated their defeated nobility into our own, and through the centuries they became more Russian than the Russians themselves.

One Mongol Khanate that survived practically into modernity is the Crimean Khanate. It was annexed by Russia in 1783, and France was the only country that lodged any kind of diplomatic protest (due to the Franco-Ottoman Alliance). Ruled by the Genghisid Giray dynasty, it was on the whole, a pretty unimpressive state. Their descent from Genghis Khan prolonged their existence, because both the Russians and the Ottomans found it useful at different points to exploit the prestige of the name.

Today, the family lives primarily in Istanbul and Moscow. Some of them live in the United States, specifically the descendants of Sultan Kadyr Giray (born 1891), who was a colonel in the Russian Imperial Army. He was wounded during the Russian Civil War, and was evacuated to Istanbul to recuperate. From there he emmigrated to the United States. Now, his descendants live primarily in New York.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
16 Jan 2024 #77
I am talking

No, that is what I'm talking about, you talk about how Russian people are great and Ukrainian nasty.
-------
Hey, we could get all that Ukrainian grain and make vodka out of it, a high-quality one, and then sell it to Russia.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
16 Jan 2024 #78
Akhmat Khan waited for his Lithuanian reinforcements to arrive, but they never did

BTW, thank you Casimir IV Jagiellon for betraying the Horde! It was the chance to keep Russia under some more centuries of servitude.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
16 Jan 2024 #79
BTW, thank you Casimir IV Jagiellon

I think he was interested in maintaining a balance between Moscow and the Mongols, eventually, he was waiting for a winner of the ensuing battle to emerge to either come at the last moment as an ally if the Mongols were victorious or to wipe out the weakened Moscow horde if they were to be victorious.
Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #80
get all that Ukrainian grain and make vodka out of it

I wouldn't risk it. Do you remember the quality of grain that entered Poland last year - did you see what was inside those trains?

We have perfect stuff, an ideal, God given ingredients and skills - the best in the world...

wódka

... why would we bastardize it with un-Polish grain?

and then sell it to Russia

Oh, for exports? Sure, why not. Good idea.

*but at least let's change the label and brand name - not to tarnish the ideal*
Bobko 25 | 2,002
16 Jan 2024 #81
I think he was interested in maintaining a balance between Moscow and the Mongols

Well, it ended up backfiring spectacularly. Not during Casimir's life, but during Alexander I's - who was the last Gediminid, and probably the last Polish ruler that could make some reasonable claim to the lands of Rus. Ivan III remembered the betrayal of the Jagiellonians, and as soon as he gathered enough strength attacked West. Alexander was forced to cede huge territories to Russia, after his defeat.

You were allied with the Great Horde. We were allied with Crimea. You placed the wrong bets. The Crimean Khanate ended up destroying the Great Horde (which helped us move South through former territories of the Great Horde until we reached the Azov Sea). Then, later, of course, we also destroyed the Crimeans - but that was centuries later.
johnny reb 47 | 7,057
16 Jan 2024 #82
Thats a photo from Russia not Poland.

Thats what I said.

Putin is putting up billboards that say Russian borders do not end raising fears of invasion.

Ironside 53 | 12,493
16 Jan 2024 #83
But at least let's change the label and brand name - not to tarnish the ideal*

To Russian Standard?
----

You placed the wrong bets

At the time it was the Great Dutchy of Lithuania. Poland wasn't interested in those affairs that much.
However, it made sense to ally with an enemy of your enemy the one that is closer to your border.
Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #84
To Russian Standard?

Well, it's Ukrainian grain, so I was thinking more along the lines of Bandera's Breath or Rezun Deluxe.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
16 Jan 2024 #85
So I was thinking more along the lines of Bandera's Breath or Rezun Deluxe.

If we would sell on the Ukrainian market, for Russia it would have to be something else, Чапаев Water for example!
Torq 5 | 667
16 Jan 2024 #86
Чапаев Water

Brilliant!
Bobko 25 | 2,002
16 Jan 2024 #87
@Ironside

There is IPA Beer, there should be UPA Beer.

For strong spirits, "Bandera's Breath" is a good name. "Dead Kacap", "Drunk Moskal", also good brands for that market.
jon357 74 | 21,940
16 Jan 2024 #88
UPA Beer.

Obolon and Lwowska are both good beers.
Bobko 25 | 2,002
16 Jan 2024 #89
@jon357

The Hohols are actually quite good at the alcohol game. Some of their brands were quite dominant in Russia, and I even see them on the shelf in NY. Nemiroff is the biggest company probably, with their various Horilkas.

Out of Russian brands here in NYC - Russian Standard, Beluga, Stolichnaya.

Polish - Belvedere, Zubrowka, Chopin, Sobieski.

Yes, I drink a lot.
jon357 74 | 21,940
16 Jan 2024 #90
quite good at the alcohol game

The Lwowska brewery goes back to the days of Austrian rule, if not further.

Nemiroff

Quite a prestige brand.

The best though is my M-I-L's samogon ;-)


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