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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4


Lenka 3 | 2,894
2 Nov 2022 #211
It is funny :)
Ziemowit 14 | 4,404
2 Nov 2022 #212
.the Ukrainians surprised everybody!

Maybe yes, maybe no. After the annexation of the Crimean peninsula, the Ukrainians realized what the Orcs are capable of doing and seriously started to re-shape their armed forces.

Imagine Denmark's army (toutes proportions gardées) annexing the Ruegen Insel in 2014 on the grounds that it was initially conquered by Valdemar the Great of Denmark in 1168 and since then remained the vassal territory of the Danes until 1325. Wouldn't Germany have then started to strenghten their army in anticipation of the Danes attempting to reconquer Vorpommern one day?
OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #213
After the annexation of the Crimean peninsula,

Russia didn't "annex". There was a referendum and the yes won by a huge margin. If you want to claim "annexation" you have to prove that the referendum was not valid,
Paulina 13 | 2,942
2 Nov 2022 #214
Ruskies in day one : Entire Ukraine in 2 weeks
Reality : 9 months, only 17,3% of UA and decreasing

The reality must have been like a juicy slap in their faces lol No wonder they're angry and they're taking out their frustration on Ukrainian civillians and POWs - as proper sociopaths would do when they fail at something.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,404
2 Nov 2022 #215
"Majority of Ukrainian soldiers will lay down their arms & join the Russians before they shoot a brother. The west will never understand a cultural link between Russians and Ukr."

I wonder where that ASB News got the idea that Russians are Ukrainian's brothers?
cms neuf - | 1,947
2 Nov 2022 #216
What referendum are you talking about ? Taken place. You must've been hitting the vodka again for breakfast!

Funnily enough the people that organized the sham online poll have not stuck around in Kherson to explain how it worked and to get the results officially validated. They are all trying to get back to Russia as quickly as possible LOL.
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #217
you have to prove that the referendum was not valid,

no international observers, no period of debate (as understood by civilized people), armed troops with no idenitfying markers (war crime) crawling over the place, people being forced to vote (non-secret ballot) at gun point and fudged numbers (one district had more 'yes' votes than inhabitants.... the hininks would have embarrassed the Daley machine... or PRI (mexican ruling party notorious for vote fraud)

Liable to all be moot since Ukraine now has the big dog (aka NATO) on its side while the miserable russian army has... Iran (where young women are beaten to death for showing their hair in public) and North Korea (the most unequal society on the planet... maybe in human history).

That means it's probably just a matter of time before Crimea is returned to Ukraine (and collaborators expelled to russia).
OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #218
From Wkipedia:

The United Nations Development Programme conducted a series of polls in Crimea between 2009 and 2011 about the question of leaving Ukraine and joining Russia with a sample size of 1,200:

Quarter Yes No Undecided
2009 Q3[34] 70% 14% 16%
2009 Q4[34] 67% 15% 18%
2010 Q1[35] 66% 14% 20%
2010 Q2[35] 65% 12% 23%
2010 Q3[35] 67% 11% 22%
2010 Q4[35] 66% 9% 25%
2011 Q4[36] 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%

But, of course, according to PF morons none of that matters.

By your idiotic logic, if the mere presence of the Russian army invalidates the reference, elections in Japan, South Korea, Germany, and now in Poland are invalid because the US army is there. Duh!

Yes, I know, the US army is very democratic and the Russians are Mongols.
Tacitus 2 | 1,625
2 Nov 2022 #219
By your idiotic logic,

The master of false analogies strikes again. If Americans were to occuppy a country, displace the democratic government and then organize a referendum without oversight and in violation of basic democratic rules (like allowing the other side to advertise their cause free and fairly) you would have a point. The USA has however not done so.

As a side note, you should know that the USA does not act as occupiers in any of those countries. They are there on invitation of those government, with very strict rules and no authority on domestic policies. After educating yourself what democratic principles mean, you should look up the term "occupation".
OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #220
The USA has however not done so.

Yes, it has. In Iraq.

As a side note, you should know that the USA does not act as occupiers in any of those countries.

You can take it to the nearest bank that if the US detected that you, Germans, don't behave, your American guests would morph into occpiers in ten minutes.

Which is neither here, nor there as far as Crimean referendum goes. Mere presence is irrelevant if the people were free to vote as they wished. So, unless you have evidence they were not free to vote as they wish, all the crap from you is irrelevant.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,584
2 Nov 2022 #221
@Novichok
You are aware that there were many international observers in Iraq. I am sure that is just an oversight on your part.
OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #222
And their temporary presence removed all the intimidation from the fact that the occupier's army that beat the fu*ck out of Iraq is still there. Sure...

So the question is simple: Is there any evidence that the Russian army swayed the outcome from No to Yes?
It's a binary question so no bs lectures and essays.
Tacitus 2 | 1,625
2 Nov 2022 #223
Yes, it has. In Iraq.

It has not. The USA did not organize a fake referendum to annex Iraq.

But I suppose that is difficult to comprehend for someone who in the past has shown himself incapable of understanding basic democratic principles.

To put it in very simple terms. Disregarding the lack of oversight and legal invalidity, a vote can only be considered democratic if the other site had a fair chance to make their case. This was not the case in any of the sham referenda in Ukraine.

Do you think that Putin has the same democratic legitimacy as say Biden?
cms neuf - | 1,947
2 Nov 2022 #224
20 zloty less to fill my tank today - gas prices are coming down nicely. And they will continue to fall. Awesome that we are able to survive without the murderers filthy oil
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,082
2 Nov 2022 #225
Imagine Denmark's army (toutes proportions gardées) annexing the Ruegen

....na ja.....*looks over to NATO friends*

:)
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #226
polls in Crimea

The only poll that matters.... does NATO want Crimea in russia or in Ukraine?

The NATO snake has fangs, what does the busted @ss russan "army" have?



OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #227
The USA did not organize a fake referendum to annex Iraq.

The US forced Japan and Germany to have the governments the US would like so cut the crap.
So is there any evidence that the Russian army in Crimea forced the outcome from NO to YES, or not?

...what does the Russian army have?

17% of Ukraine.
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #228
is there any evidence that the Russian army in Crimea forced the outcome

irrelevant.... the only outcome that matters now is what NATO wants.... haven't you figured that out yet? all russia has to do is surrender to NATO to stop all this... over 70,000 russian men could be alive if russia just surrendered... but russians aren't smart enough to figure that out....

17% of Ukraine.

a bit less every day.... russia's gonna be lucky to have russia if it ever really crosses NATO and you know it
OP Novichok 3 | 6,795
2 Nov 2022 #229
No evidence, no case. Next...
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #230
Next...

Next stop for Crimea is Ukraine... back where she belongs and all the russian garbage will be deported to garbageland (aka russia).
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,082
2 Nov 2022 #231
The US forced Japan and Germany to have the governments the US would like

So did the Russians in their zone of occupation....today would that be Syria...and soon Ukraine if they had the say.....
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #232
The US forced Japan and Germany to have the governments the US would like

And both countries are now far better off for it.

Now.... it's russia's turn. They've proven they don't deserve to run a country since every effort they've made has been a cesspit.... time for the experts to come in and reorganize things....
cms neuf - | 1,947
2 Nov 2022 #233
Yes the Allies did that in Germany and Japan - genocidal fascist countries same as Russia is.

There is one difference though - they both had well organized armies with brave soldiers. The Russian army is just a jioke and the only thing they can organize is how to turn potato peelings into moonshine and the transport of stolen fridges.
Tacitus 2 | 1,625
2 Nov 2022 #234
So did the Russians

Objection. The Americans only demanded that West Germany become a democracy,but left questions like it should become a presidential or parliamentary democracy open to the Germans. They did not choose a government or (like the SU did in the GDR 1953) kept them in power with their tanks against domestic opposition.

forced the outcome from NO to YES

Did you miss the part about not allowing the Loyalists to properly advertise their cause? That they persecuted them and put them in prison or that there was no oversight over the election count? Of course there is plenty of evidence that the Russian forced the "outcome" (we do not know if this outcome was actually true). If the Russians had been sure of the outcome, they would not have resorted to such a sham but tried to give it some legitimacy.

Now humour me. Does Putin have the same democratic legitimacy as Biden?
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #235
no oversight over the election count?

his legal picking posts are like Darrell Brooks repeatedly asking about Subject Matter Jurisdiction in his trial... deflection and distraction...

all he cares about is brute force... and so let's give him that.... russia is no match for the NATO snake! russia needs to watch its step or it might cease to exist! there's no reason for russia to not surrender now.
Tacitus 2 | 1,625
2 Nov 2022 #236
Well, it is not looking good for them now, but I'd still be cautious about their long-term prospects. The US support will be crucial and that might depend on the mid-term elections.
mafketis 35 | 11,212
2 Nov 2022 #237
US support will be crucial and that might depend on the mid-term elections

not that much... Trump and Biden foreign policy ultimately aren't that different (and very different from WBush and Obama foreign policy which were also very similar)
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,584
2 Nov 2022 #238
Reports now are coming out of Ukraine concerning Russians on the front lines are pretending to be dead in order to get captured. Rather than get liquidated fighting they are laying there and playing dead while waiting for Ukraine to advance and then surrender. The other option would be to try to retreat and risk getting liquidated by their own comrades in the line behind the first line. So good to be an Orc who was just drafted weeks ago to be faced with having to play dead or actually die. That is some quality planning and leadership there.
Tacitus 2 | 1,625
2 Nov 2022 #239
not that much

Leaving aside that Trump wanted to stall the delivery of weapons to Ukraine in order to get dirt on Hunter Biden, I'd argue that there are plenty of signs that US policy might change in the future. The Republican who might be in charge of the House of Representatives has already stated that he would want to drastically reduce American support. Then you have the letter of the 30 Democrats that demanded something similar. Not to mention the influence of Tucker Carlson (whom Russian propqganda outlets love to quote). And who knows how things look like once the recession begins to bite, no doubt further bns for Ukraine will become less and less popular. Others will also start to argue that this is a European matter,that the real enemy is China and that it is better to concentrate on Taiwan and leave the matter to the Europeans.

I'm not saying that this is inevitable, but the risk is there. The consequences would be dire. The Ukrainians are incredibly brave, but they lack the ressources to sustain a conventional war since their arms industry was destroyed without Western support. They could probably defend themselves, but without the US they could no longer dream off recapturing territory.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,584
2 Nov 2022 #240
@Tacitus
Without the US this war is over months ago. Trump wanted to take the US out of NATO, he said as much. The Republicans who will take the house will not stop supporting Ukraine, they have already said they just want more oversight and to ensure US stocks are not taken too low. Trump was impeached because of the delay in funding Ukraine over the Biden mess. Another political stupid move by both sides really.

It should be remembered that traditionally it is the Democrats that were weak on the military, and Republicans traditionally are not. Taiwan is not seen as a priority by the US citizens. As far as their concerned they can buy their computer chips from Japan. The thinking that US wants to leave Ukraine to Europeans is way off the mark. The US is already invested in Ukraine, and this is a business deal where the US will profit from rebuilding Ukraine next. Fortunes were made with German reconstruction, and fortunes will be made in Ukraine. Don't think for one second the US won't get their money back and then some.


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