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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4


cms neuf - | 2,060
30 Nov 2022 #1,261
There isn't any Kaliningrad Oblast - it can be Krolowiec or Konigsberg but don't use it's slave name any more.

Kalinin was one of the men who ordered Katyn - a pathetic slave loser because while he was doing that his Commie murderer comrades were torturing his wife somewhere in the gulag.
Paulina 13 | 3,266
30 Nov 2022 #1,262
@johnny reb, I didn't misunderstand you - you admitted yourself that you made a mistake - you wrote that NATO put "patriot interceptor missiles on the Russian Ukranian border" which of course didn't happen. Why are you going back on that now? lol

Can you explain what makes you think that it was a root cause of all subsequent events?

The fact that RuSSia invading Ukraine... started a war? lol That's what usually happens when you invade a country and take or you're trying to take it's territory - that's how wars start. It's a no-brainer really.

Expound on exactly what the moral obligation we have in helping Ukraine defeat Russia.

The US and the UK signed the Budapest Memorandum and by doing that they gave Ukraine security assurances in exchange for Ukraine giving away it's nukes to RuSSia. Until Ukraine gave them up that country had the world's third-largest nuclear weapons stockpile. At some point Ukrainians had second thoughts about signing the memorandum and it was the American president, Bill Clinton, who talked them into signing it despite their doubts. So, formally and from a moral point of view the US has probably the biggest moral responsibility to help Ukraine from all the countries.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,319
30 Nov 2022 #1,263
Interesting!

Historic US plan - Patriot missiles to come soon from Germany

welt.de/wirtschaft/article242386873/Historischer-Plan-der-USA-Patriot-Raketen-sollen-bald-aus-Deutschland-kommen.html

Against the background of Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine, the US Patriot anti-aircraft missile could also be produced in Germany in the future. The two armaments groups Raytheon and MBDA Germany propose building a production line in Schrobenhausen, Bavaria, for both the Bundeswehr and the European NATO users of the rocket.

This would be the first time in the more than 40-year history of the Patriot manufacturer Raytheon to start production of the rocket outside the USA. In addition, the latest version of the Patriot GEM-T missile would then be built as an American-German product.

"In view of the increased demand in Europe, we intend to double our production capacities," said Doug Stevenson, Raytheon manager responsible for international business WELT. He does not give specific figures about the volume. "There could be hundreds in the near future," the manager explained. In addition to reacting to the new threat situation, older versions of the Patriot missile would also be replaced in Europe in four or five years and stockpiles of missiles in Europe would be increased anyway. ...


Kalinin was one of the men who ordered Katyn -

I guess the city will be renamed once the times change in Russia....
jon357 71 | 20,799
30 Nov 2022 #1,264
Looks like some ruSSists have been careless with their lit cigarette ends again.

Nice to see a blaze at an oil storage facility there and hopefully many more will come. r*SSia, since they never seem to learn the easy way must now learn the hard way. And of course no oil or gas from there must ever be imported westward into Europe again.

Meanwhile, Ukraine has asked for more weapons systems, particularly specific air defence systems which will hopefully be provided very swiftly indeed.

I guess the city will be renamed

Perhaps Port Elizabeth.
AntV 5 | 657
30 Nov 2022 #1,265
The US and the UK signed the Budapest Memorandum

Now THAT is an argument of substance...and a very good point. An important point about that agreement, though, was the agreement was between the US, UK, and Russia as an assurance Ukraine territory would remain intact if Uke went non-nuke. The agreement wasn't actually with Ukraine. Even certain members if the Clinton admin and the Ukrainian asmin knew it was basically worthless.

Nevertheless, it does beg scrutiny.

You might like a book called "Not One Inch" that talks about post cold war and NATO expansion. IMO, the hubris of the the US ( and other western countries) share a ton of blame for getting to where we are now. For the record, because people love to go off the rails and make cock-eyed conclusions, Putin is the only one responsible for this invasion-but he is responding to certain geopolitical realities, which, however, does not excuse his unjust invasion.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,970
30 Nov 2022 #1,266
More missile systems heading to Ukraine. Could be longer range missiles going soon. Don't look now but Crimea could be in range for a Christmas shelling. Happy gulag biatches!
mafketis 35 | 11,523
30 Nov 2022 #1,267
utin is the only one responsible for this invasion

yes.

he is responding to certain geopolitical realities

Please find an expert with insider knowledge of russian/soviet culture who takes the "it's NATO's fault!" idea seriously... cause I haven't both pro- and anti- putain russians mostly don't mention it at all (or dismiss it).
Bobko 11 | 568
30 Nov 2022 #1,268
Please find an expert with insider knowledge of russian/soviet culture who takes the "it's NATO's fault!" idea seriously

I'm no expert, but I believe that. Also, a good portion of the Russian population believes that. Not sure if he qualifies as an expert, but my president - Vladimir Putin - has told me through the TV set that that is what he thinks too, and this for the last twenty two years of seeing his august face appear on the screen.

Perhaps stop reading Galeev and other Twitter nobodies with an axe to grind, if you truly want an accurate perception of popular Russian attitudes.
jon357 71 | 20,799
30 Nov 2022 #1,269
Galeev

He calls it right.

Oh boy, are r*SSians in for a few shocks and a hard couple of decades....
Bobko 11 | 568
30 Nov 2022 #1,270
In general, people that claim to not buy the "it's NATO's fault" narrative, and instead argue that Russia must be healed of some "imperial" delusion are quite clueless. I saw an article recently, by a historian I had formerly respected - Timothy Snyder - that argued that Russia will "win by losing", since only by losing can Russia become a normal country and develop prosperously. I'm sure this would win many plaudits from the local Russophobe brigade, but this would be completely myopic since it would be your Eastern European countries that would suffer the most from a Russian defeat.

Russia is not Britain or France, or some other former empire ruling faraway peoples across the sea. We can't just curl up in our little sh!thole of a home, and whistfully exclaim "oh that was nice while it lasted". Russia IS empire. It's a foundational aspect of how we conceive of ourselves as a people. Though it may have been built around an ethnic Russian core, Orthodoxy, and Autocracy, our identity is also intrinsically tied to every constituent part which it digested during its expansion (yes, that includes the Horde). There is no "real Russia" and "outer Russia", as there was for the English and the French. There is nothing for us to fall back on. Ukraine is as much a part of our collective memory as Appalachia is to America. Our defeat in this war, will lead to an implosion that almost certainly will spill over our borders, and likely consume the entire planet - for decades. People will look back, and wonder how we let it fester to such a point, when the root cause was trivial in a global context - whether or not our former constituent part should be able to join a rival military alliance.
cms neuf - | 2,060
30 Nov 2022 #1,271
But Appalachia wants to be part of America. People in Appalachia are extremely patriotic.

The Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia.

And as for your empire - even when it was good it was hopeless. Don't kid yourself that the world will go up in flames.

Something Awesome is happening - bully dictators in the China, Iran and Russia realizing that they have to treat their own people with a minimum amount of respect
Lenka 3 | 3,064
30 Nov 2022 #1,272
people that claim to not buy the "it's NATO's fault" narrative are quite clueless.

Explain then why Russia didn't attack neighbouring countries that actually joined NATO and instead attacked Ukraine that wasn't even close to becoming one? And if NATO is a thread how do Russians cope with the fact that this war didn't stop NATO expansion, just the opposite?

There is no "real Russia" and "outer Russia". Ukraine is as much a part of our collective memory as Appalachia is to America.

Though sh*t. What matters is if Ukrainians feel that way. And they obviously don't.
jon357 71 | 20,799
30 Nov 2022 #1,273
or some other former empire

r*SSia is precisely a former empire, and no longer a superpower. Putler's attempt to turn the clock back has failed badly and turned his country into a pariah state with a trashed economy.

There is nothing for us to fall back on

There is. It's called r*SSia. Try making it less of a crime, corruption and violence-infested sh1thole.

an implosion that almost certainly will spill over our borders, and likely consume the entire planet - for decades

You overestimate your importance.
Bobko 11 | 568
30 Nov 2022 #1,274
even when it was good it was hopeless

It was not hopeless. Prior to World War I we had the fastest growing economy in the world, rapidly overtaking all the giants of the Old World, and comparable only to the United States in our potential. We came late to the Industrial Revolution, but once it was in full swing we were on a path to being unstoppable.

The betrayal of our Western Allies, and the Bolsheviks coming to power wiped out all of that and plunged us into darkness. Nevertheless, by 1950 or so we regained the position of number 2 economy, and maintained that position through 1991 - when once again things went to sh!t.

How deep do you have to dig in the annals of world history to find a moment when Poland was number 5, let alone number 2 in the world?
amiga500 3 | 1,295
30 Nov 2022 #1,275
Please find an expert with insider knowledge of russian/soviet culture who takes the "it's NATO's fault!" idea seriously..

To be fair there is lots of them. Jefferey Sachs and Jack F. Matlock would defintely qualify as being au fait with russian culture. Of course they miss the point of why should russia's feelings take precedence over the sovereign desire for Poland and Ukraine to join Nato and be free of the bear?

twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1498491107902062592%7Ctwgr%5E360cf3fcdd66187adb098186a615911b7ad7bf24%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fprnigeria.com%2F2022%2F03%2F05%2Fhow-western-strategic-thinkers%2F
jon357 71 | 20,799
30 Nov 2022 #1,276
number 2 economy

Behind Spain now, and falling fast.
mafketis 35 | 11,523
30 Nov 2022 #1,277
if you truly want an accurate perception of popular Russian attitudes

I have no interest in popular russian attitudes. russia is a society kept ignorant by its government and popular opinions will be ill-formed and ignorant as well.

we regained the position of number 2 economy

in dog money?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,319
30 Nov 2022 #1,278
....also a consequence of the invasion (and that Germany doesn't get any russian gas anymore):

Bundestag condemns Holodomor as genocide

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundestag-verurteilt-holodomor-als-voelkermord-a-3e37be56-6dbb-4cbd-93a1-f9b2b8b0c81f

The famine in Ukraine in the 1930s, which killed millions, was the result of political decisions made by the Soviet leadership at the time: The Bundestag now rates the Holodomor as a "crime against humanity"....
mafketis 35 | 11,523
30 Nov 2022 #1,279
Jefferey Sachs and Jack F. Matlock would defintely qualify as being au fait with russian culture

Outsiders, not insiders like Galeev or Anatoly Karlin (bitter disappointed putainite)
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,970
30 Nov 2022 #1,280
@Bobko
LMMFAO your wildly grandiose view of Russia and its impact on the world is another exmaple of just how fvcked up the Russian mind is. Russia will impact no one, and its collapse will not spill over into anywhere. It will be contained within Russian borders and it will consume itself. This is inevitable. Your and every other Russians view of themselves as superior is unfounded, and the country will have zero impact on the world in the next 20 year when no one needs its natural resources.

What Russia was prior to WW1 means absolutely zero in todays developed world. Russia is a go nowhere, do nothing nation full of criminals and lead by a criminal. Really, I laugh out loud when I read your bull$hit and others who post ridiculous claims like this. Go volunteer and leave the US. Stop hiding behind US borders and enjoying western life. Fvcking Russians like you should be removed from the US by force and sent to the front.
jon357 71 | 20,799
30 Nov 2022 #1,281
It's been reassuring to be reminded of some of the other free world nations (aside from the obvious leaders UK, US and Poland) in the alliance.

Having Sweden, Norway and Finland is a massive strength. Those nations know ruSSia, and they know winter. And they have some of the very best kit. The free world has all the strength here. The orc military will be done by late spring.

And to add something else positive, a leaked poll from within r*SSia shows that as of this week, just one in four people now support keeping their foul orcs in Ukraine, down from 57 per cent in July
Korvinus 1 | 510
30 Nov 2022 #1,282
your Eastern European countries that would suffer the most from a Russian defeat.

World with Russia defeated and its imperial ambitions broken? Okay, count me in!

Also, Ukraine is looking into being a developed country akin to Estonia. IMO is a much better model than Russia and its allies.

And look how interesting is. UA propaganda talks about development. Russia propaganda talks about imperialism. Ukraine is wanting to develop and give safety, freedom and prosperity to its citizens. While KGB Dwarf wanna to reestablish spheres of influence... That is the difference between the two countries.
cms neuf - | 2,060
30 Nov 2022 #1,283
Russia was not the Number 2 economy in 1950 - CCCP economists just put those numbers on Stalin's desk so he didn't murder them.

And before WW1 then Russia was a backward nation of a few British and American finances factories and the rest of the population living in hovels.

As for collective memory, after spending every lunchtime getting out of your box on paint stripper, I am surprised there is such a thing for Russians LOL
PolAmKrakow 2 | 1,970
1 Dec 2022 #1,284
@Paulina
This was a really good legal point. While the agreement is technically between parties not named Ukraine, there is a very important distinction to be made. The legal principal of ratification by acceptance comes into play. Ukraine did give up their nukes as a result of this agreement, therefore it was ratified by them and accepted by them and the other three signing parties. Any court would find this principle applies and the parties are all bound by it.

Meanwhile in Russia, little Vlad is strengthening laws that will allow the prosecution of protestors or anyone speaking their opinion against the war or government. Now people who have been "influenced" by any foreign agency or person can be prosecuted as a foreign agent. Thought police at its finest. Looks like little Vlad knows he is losing the hearts and minds of Russians and now he has to keep them silent. Every little biatch dictator does this, it is in the playbook for people losing control, Belarus is a fine example of this. I wonder, other than a bullet, what will be the last thing to pass through little Vlads small mind when the end comes for him.
Alien 12 | 2,634
1 Dec 2022 #1,285
to pass through little Vlads small mind

It will be a stroke, like by Stalin.
Tacitus 2 | 1,725
1 Dec 2022 #1,286
@Bobko

we were on the path of being unstoppable

Is that what they teach you about Russian history?
The Russian Empire lagged in 1914 well behind the developed world on pretty much every indicator, with no hope of that changing soon. High illiteracy rates, low economic output per citizen, few railway lines, almost no scientists of note (only 2! nobel prizes until 1933).
mafketis 35 | 11,523
1 Dec 2022 #1,287
Russian Empire lagged in 1914 well behind the developed world on pretty much every indicator, with no hope of that changing soon

At the end of the mongol period russia was effectively 300 years behind Europe in terms of technological and socio-political development.... they've gained ground but still haven't closed the gap. That's why they're still stuck in dead political models like "great powers" and "spheres of influence" or pursuing empire long after the rest of the world realized that's a dead end....
jon357 71 | 20,799
1 Dec 2022 #1,288
The media are saying that the orcs are planning a very big air strike. They also point out that the planes which are being prepared are decades old and this is very much throwing all they've got left at it.
johnny reb 40 | 8,555
1 Dec 2022 #1,289
this is very much throwing all they've got left at it.

Putin is scraping the bottom of his barrel in desperation.
Russian has lost more than 6,000 troops in two weeks, adding further casualties to a hefty estimated Russian death toll from the war.
Latest poll in Russia shows that only 1 in 4 people approve of this war.
Come on Putin, where is your white flag ?
mafketis 35 | 11,523
1 Dec 2022 #1,290
I usually don't report on the more.... gossipy posts at generalsvr because they're less relevant to the war, but today's is too funny to not share.

caveat: unofficial account but one that is often very accurate and ahead of the news cycle....

anyhoo.... putain had a boo boo on the stairs at home, fell and cr@pped himself... ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Just like Jerry Nadler! (though no crab walk... he was carried to a restroom to be cleaned up....)

twitter.com/generalsvr_en/status/1598268709465825280

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