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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 3


pawian 194 | 19,785
16 Aug 2022 #1,111
"Ukraine doesn't exist. It will become a part of our new empire.

Sick dreams of RuSSists. The Empire already started crumbling after the fall of USSR. This war is a perfect symbol of its agonal tremors. The full demise will take place soon under the Western sanctions. And then, dead RuSSia will bear a lot of offspring from her imperial womb - new states.

As history teaches us, empires always come to an end. RuSSists have lasted long but nothing is for ever.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,759
16 Aug 2022 #1,112
Notice how all the Putin bandwagon boys also love Trump and PiS? Populism and dictatorship. The counter offensive Bobko? You haven't been paying attention little fella. Russians are getting whacked left and right in Kherson. So much so that leadership has left them. And dont look now but the leader of the Wager group has been liquidated. Not in a commercial sale per se, literally just liquidated. LMAO May all your hero's and scumbags perish in the same manner. Happy gulag biatches!
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,685
16 Aug 2022 #1,113
a lot of offspring from her imperial womb - new states

That would be a decent scenario for Poland but there are other possible scenarios as well, so we shouldn't count our chickens just yet (or, as we more aptly say in Poland, we shouldn't split skin on the bear just yet).
Bobko 11 | 1,112
16 Aug 2022 #1,114
Russia was founded by Ukrainians who moved to Russia and formed a new state.

Ahahahahaha! Why then, is it not us that is called Ukrainians, since under your logic we are then the border people? You do know what "Ukraina" means, don't you - or is your command of Slavic languages so p!ss poor? Think about it, why on earth would any country, regardless of how little self respect they have, call themselves "the borderlands" (also looking at you, Austria)?

So these legendary founders of ours, decided to call themselves the proud name of "border people", and then founded another country with completely made-up and stupid name of Rus'?

I'm sorry, but your history is completely in reverse. There is a direct line from the leaders of the Russian Federation, the Soviet Union, Imperial Russian, Tsardom of Russia, Grand Duchy of Muscovy, Grand Duchy of Vladimir, Kingdom of Rus', and then finally to Rurik. No serious Western historian, even if he is from Britain, can dispute this.

Meanwhile, Ukraine can trace its history from a Jewish comedian, to Soviet apparatchiks, Imperial Russian governors, and finally to a bunch of henchmen (Atamans) of wild and often criminal gangs called Cossacks - who were paid vassals of Russian tsars and Polish kings.

Your Russian claim for Ukraine is like America saying that England should be theirs.....

Interesting... did the King or Queen of England move to America at some point, then conquer England in reverse and rule it for close to half a millennium? I need to reread my American history.
Kashub1410 4 | 451
16 Aug 2022 #1,115
@Bobko
Moscovites (those ruling Moscow) deliberately deliberately tried to have a Russian Tsar (Tsar of all Rus/Ruthinians/Russians) as to have legitimacy in conquering/claiming Eastern European lands populated by eastern Slavs who used to be part of Kiev Rus before it's crumbling into pieces.

I thought it was rather obvious
Bobko 11 | 1,112
16 Aug 2022 #1,116
who used to be part of Kiev Rus

Please don't tell me about any historic place called Kievan Rus'. It was invented by Russian historians in the 19th century for purposes of historiographical convenience. There never, ever existed a state called Kievan Rus'. Only Rus', and it still exists, as do its people. At the time this term was invented, nobody could imagine that a bunch of retarded Ukrainians would one day start carrying around this combination of words as proof of their legitimacy. Western scholars didn't even use this term until the middle of the 20th century.

Read wiki:

The term Kievan Rus' (Russian: Ки́евская Русь, romanized: Kiyevskaya Rus) was coined in the 19th century in Russian historiography to refer to the period when the centre was in Kiev. In the 19th century it also appeared in Ukrainian: Ки́ївська Русь, romanized: Kyivska Rus. In English, the term was introduced in the early 20th century, when it was found in the 1913 English translation of Vasily Klyuchevsky's A History of Russia, to distinguish the early polity from successor states, which were also named Rus. The variant Kyivan Rus' appeared in English-language scholarship by the 1950s.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,801
16 Aug 2022 #1,117
It was invented by Russian historians in the 19th century for purposes of historiographical convenience

Not only for that. Also to provide that direct link between old Rus principalities and Moscow.
Moscow and Kiev and people who live there are dirfferend people with differnat histroy. 300 years rule of Moscow over them just muddled the issue but did not change reality.
Bobko 11 | 1,112
16 Aug 2022 #1,118
@Kashub1410

Yes, and the first capital of France was Tournai, which is now in Belgium. Thankfully, Belgians do not claim that their country should be called France and that France is merely their historic hinterland. Colchester and Winchester were the capitals of England before London, but you don't hear about Colchesterians being a different people than the English. Do you know how many countries had migrating centers of gravity? Do you know anything about the history of Poland?

@Cojest

Right-bank Ukraine was under Russian control for 350+ years after the partitions of Poland. Left-bank for much, much longer. If you include the period when we lived together in the beginning, you can argue that we have been together for 800+ years, with a few centuries of separation in the interim.
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,685
16 Aug 2022 #1,119
we have been together for 800+ years, with a few centuries of separation in the interim

For 800 years we've fought you without fear
And we'll fight you for 800 more!


It's not a Ukrainian song, but it's a song of another proud nation on the fringes of Europe, who kept their identity and pride despite centuries of foreign occupation. Nihil novi sub sole. Why would Russia try to incorporate into their "empire" a nation that so obviously has a separate identity and doesn't want to belong to it?
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,801
16 Aug 2022 #1,120
Right-bank Ukraine was under Russian control

It doesn't matter. Ukrainians, Belrusans and Lithunians are the nations that formed in the 19th century after patrition of Poland. If Polish state was still around it might go other way. As it was it took rather a long time for them. All are what is left from the Polish Comonwealth.

Moscow is a speparte enitity, speparte by the time and space for about 500 years it was separted. That is the reality.
Russia is not a nation, all those problems arise from the fact that there is no Rusian nation. There is only an imperial, aggresive state. Without a state Russia do not exist. Hence the tension - imprialistic Russian mindset knows only a state.

A nation wouldn't care that much about win or loose in a war of expantion, for the Russian midnset that is the everything. They can live in the mud and be screw over all the time if only their state would win.

That is messed up!
Bobko 11 | 1,112
16 Aug 2022 #1,121
so obviously has a separate identity

This is not obvious at all. They are just a little bit confused, thanks to long term Polish brainwashing, and then a little bit of Austrian hypnotherapy. If you get to the core of the issue, they are the same as us. Orthodox, Russian speaking (despite all the borrowed Polonisms), and with a mutual history that is longer than the existence of 95% of modern states on the planet.

It is such a "not obvious" point, that the second President of independent Ukraine, Leonid Kuchma, felt he had to write a book titled "Ukraine is not Russia".

Link if someone wants to read his opus:

amazon.com/Ukraina-Rossiia-Ukraine-not-Russia/dp/5941170750

Can you imagine Tony Blair, sitting down to write a book called "Britain is not America"?

Russia is not a nation

Here we go again... Yes, as Miloslaw explains - we are actually Ukrainians who moved into the eastern forests and suckled on the evil tit of Mongols and Tatars, before we came back as a new mutant race. We should drop on our knees before Zelensky and ask him to accept us back into Ukraine.

You are welcome, by the way, for us shielding your stupid Europe from the Horde and ultimately defeating them after gathering strength around the Grand Duchy of Moscow.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,759
16 Aug 2022 #1,122
In other real news outside of the Russian propaganda and excuse making for being an invasion force killing innocent people, more Wagner Group forces were killed by Al-Qaeda operatives in Mali. LMFAO Wagners are getting whacked everywhere now. And now reports of more explosions by insurgents in Crimea as another weapons dump has mysteriously blown up. So, while you want to discuss history, you should discuss the disaster that historians will write about Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,163
16 Aug 2022 #1,123
They are so not winning:

Military expert from Russia admits significant weaknesses of the Kremlin army

spiegel.de/ausland/ukraine-russland-krieg-kreml-militaerexperte-gesteht-schwaechen-der-armee-ein-a-c4fda75e-681b-47e2-9137-a0d7c7042775

Outdated Soviet tanks against modern NATO systems, barely enough soldiers: Analyst Ruslan Pukhov, who is loyal to the Kremlin, has criticized his own army with unusual sharpness. And outlines when it could fail completely. ....

...In Ukraine, for example, Russia is still relying too heavily on outdated tanks like the T-90. It was "a tuning of a Soviet tank". According to the military expert, it is "not entirely fair to require it to successfully withstand the latest anti-tank systems such as Javelin, NLAW or Matador". The Air Force is also outdated. There is hardly enough precision ammunition and detection and targeting devices to break through the still strong Ukrainian air defense system. Ukraine has also received many portable anti-aircraft systems from the West, which means that Russia can hardly operate effectively.

Puchow also identified a "significant deficiency" on the ground: the number of deployable soldiers. "The front is large and there aren't enough forces," says the expert in an interview. "The Ukrainians are on the defensive, they have a lot of artillery and fighter planes. We, on the other hand, have to break through the front with an insufficient number of soldiers and vulnerable tanks and armored personnel carriers.« ....


....says their own expert:

The unusually sharp words are a peculiarity by Russian standards: the war must officially be called a "military special operation," previous failures are downplayed in the Kremlin. Puchow's words stand in clear contrast to this. The 49-year-old is director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) and has been a member of the Council of Experts of the Government of the Russian Federation since 2012 and has close ties to the Russian Defense Ministry. He is considered to be loyal to the Kremlin and a proven connoisseur of the Russian army.
Kashub1410 4 | 451
16 Aug 2022 #1,124
@Bobko
Neither Belgium (who was created through an agreed treaty, similarity Ukraine gave up nukes for guarantees by U.S.A and Russia) or France are at each other's throats militarily.

Yet France isn't invading Belgium, nor Belgium at war with France.

Would Russia be able to swallow their pride like France and agree to a capital of Slavic union in Minsk? Kiev or Bratislava? As a compromise to not have it in Moscow or Warsaw? I highly doubt that
cms neuf - | 2,204
16 Aug 2022 #1,125
More ammo dumps getting blown up in Ukrainian Crimea today. Those Russian soldiers should he more careful about where they smoke - still it's understandable they are confused after another soul destroying evening of drinking bimber and whatever food rations they could pilfer from the local population.

And I don't understand while you keep making bogus comparisons with Belgium or France or Tony Blair. Those are normal countries with democracy and a sense of public values. They are not countries widely known as drunk thieves, murderers and rapists
Paulina 13 | 3,762
16 Aug 2022 #1,126
@cms neuf, Russians should probably change the brand they're smoking lol:

luckystrike
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,801
16 Aug 2022 #1,127
Russian speaking (despite all the borrowed Polonisms)

Ukrainian and Russian share 62% of lexical similarity, Ukrainian and Polish 70%, Ukrainian and Belorusan 84%, Ukrainian and Slovack 66%.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,163
16 Aug 2022 #1,128
...that really doesn't look so good anymore:

Russian fleet apparently can no longer control the Black Sea

spiegel.de/ausland/ukraine-krieg-russische-flotte-kann-das-schwarze-meer-laut-london-nicht-mehr-kontrollieren-a-fc8e8f44-5a1c-4e96-abe5-0f5c3be7a826

According to London, the Russian naval forces are only partially able to support the invasion of Ukraine. This is also due to the loss of the flagship "Moskva". Odessa is no longer in danger from the sea.....

The super gau for Putin and his empirial dreams, the mighty Red Army unable to even "de-nazify" poor little Ukraine....

...The fleet's restrictions undermined Russia's invasion strategy, it said. The danger of Russian troops landing in the Ukrainian port Odessa from the sea has largely been averted. "This means Ukraine can move resources to put pressure on Russian ground forces elsewhere," the British concluded. No port is required for a so-called amphibious landing of troops and material using special ships.

In April the pride of the Russian Navy, the Moskva, in the Black Sea. Her sinking was a serious blow to the Russian army, especially since the Ukrainian military claims the cruiser was sunk with two Neptun anti-ship missiles.

It is therefore hardly surprising that Moscow is trying to portray the sinking of the warship as an accident. There was a fire on board, allegedly caused by exploded ammunition, it said. The ship then sank in stormy seas, the Ministry of Defense said on April 14. According to meteorologists, the storm never happened...

Novichok 2 | 7,562
16 Aug 2022 #1,129
In the so-called "Polish Operation" genocide alone, more than 100,000 Poles died...

This makes the ratio still a staggering 50:1 - 5 million killed by Germans vs. 100,000 by the Soviets. Somehow the hate ratio is not the same today. In fact, Poland loves Germany.

I guess money reduces pain very effectively.

Today, Germany are not invading neighboring countries.

Russia didn't invade Poland. Two ex-republics at war is none of your business just like the US invading Vietnam and Iraq wasn't. Did you hate the US for invading Iraq or did you join to express your disapproval?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,163
16 Aug 2022 #1,130
In fact, Poland loves Germany.

....I wouldn't go that far.....
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,685
16 Aug 2022 #1,131
This makes the ratio still a staggering 50:1 - 5 million killed by Germans vs. 100,000 by the Soviets.

Where did you get that 5 million figure? About 3 million ethnic Poles were killed by Germans in WW2. And why do you only count the victims of NKVD "Polish Operation" on the Soviet side? How about another 100,000 that perished in the Polish-Soviet war? That brings down your ratio to 15:1, and we're not done yet - how about Soviet invasion in 1939 and the thousands killed and deported then, how about thousands of Home Army soldiers, hunted and killed - very often without trial - or sentenced to death in phony trials during and after WW2? What's your ratio now? 10:1? And you said 1000:1 several posts ago. And let's not forget that it's not Germans, murdering whom they considered "subhumans", but it's our dear Slavic brothers doing it to their own flesh and blood.

In fact, Poland loves Germany

To say "love" would be exaggerating (ever so slightly but still). And it's not because of money, but because of German conduct towards Poland, mainly in the recent 30 years or so. They have been a reliable ally - sure, there have been misunderstandings but nothing too serious - and dealt with their nazi past appropriately (as opposed to Russia and their "glorious" soviet past).
Paulina 13 | 3,762
16 Aug 2022 #1,132
I guess money reduces pain very effectively.

GefreiterKania is right. It's not about money. Germany changed, Russia didn't. It really is that simple.
Novichok 2 | 7,562
16 Aug 2022 #1,133
And you said 1000:1 several posts ago

I never said it was 1000:1. I asked if it was 1000:1.

As a consolation, the Soviets murdered their own in numbers far greater than what they did to the Polish population.
Today, the double standard is as clear as ever. The West-caused deaths - the good deaths for "democracy" - are justified. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan come to mind - all operations at places thousands of miles away with zero threat to the US and its bootlickers like Poland and other allies.

Somehow, Russia is expected to ignore the snake at its door. I only wish the US had the same instinct of self-preservation and stop the flood.

Russia didn't. It really is that simple.

You are so right. It was Merkel who apologized for Katyn. It was very nice of her.

Please stick to the topic of the thread
johnny reb 36 | 7,570
16 Aug 2022 #1,134
Poland is going to Asian powerhouse to find a replacement for its aging Soviet-era fighter jets
Quote:
On July 27, Poland signed one of its largest arms deals ever for more artillery, tanks, and aircraft to modernize its military amid heightened tensions in Europe.

Warsaw's $14.5 billion deal with South Korea - the largest ever for South Korea's defense industry - includes 1,000 K2 Black Panther tanks, nearly 700 K9 self-propelled howitzers, and 48 FA-50 light combat aircraft.

The size of the contract and Warsaw's decision to buy from an emerging military exporter also reflects thinking influenced by the fraught state of European geopolitics.


news.yahoo.com/nato-member-poland-going-asian-224350589.html
pawian 194 | 19,785
16 Aug 2022 #1,135
They launched 300+ cruise missiles at just Baghdad

Ok, I checked it, that`s correct.

our nuclear doctrine allows for a strike on Ukraine - since this would threaten the existence of our state.

Currently the Crimea is under attack and you consider it RuSSian territory. And????
Paulina 13 | 3,762
16 Aug 2022 #1,136
OK, so to get back to the topic of this thread - Poles helping Ukraine/Ukrainians...

I think Bobko probably should find this one interesting - a video from just 10 days ago from Mykolaiv, where his cousin lives, from what I can remember, made by Poles bringing humanitarian aid into Ukraine.

That's a city where Russian missiles are falling, there's no drinking water, 40% of inhabitants left the city (according to one local lady), there are no jobs now, people have no money, food.

This video is made by two Polish travellers-youtubers (I think they're a brother and a sister) who are that type of travellers that go to places where tourists usually don't go or even haven't heard of (like Gagauzia o_O). They've been to Afghanistan, Iran, Mongolia, places in Russia like Chechnya or a closed city Norilsk, they've been to Crimea after the Russian annexation and numerous times to Ukraine both before and after the Russian invasion started.

What's characteristic for their videos on their YouTube channel is that they talk to locals to find out what's the reality on the ground. People watching their videos filmed in Ukraine are often saying that they're doing a better job than professional journalists.

So, there you go - mined beaches in Ukraine and giving out water and food and talking to locals in Mykolaiv:

youtu.be/VYFXAMlk1hU

And here's an interesting video they made three months ago on their way with humanitarian aid to Kharkiv and in Kharkiv itself, including in a neighbourhood that was shelled during that period of time:

youtu.be/lKBru9BWdWc

They've talked to locals, obviously, about what's going on, about Russian propaganda, etc.

They've also stumbled upon some very positive and religious Americans also bringing humanitarian aid to Ukraine - I think they're from some of those weird Christian churches in the US lol ;) It's nice that they're helping though :)
Novichok 2 | 7,562
16 Aug 2022 #1,137
40% of inhabitants left the city (according to one local lady), there are no jobs now, people have no money, food.

All preventable by executing Z Causeascu-style and making Ukraine neutral. Or at least starting negotiations.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,163
16 Aug 2022 #1,138
and making Ukraine neutral

Ukraine WAS neutral....no NATO / no EU.....now it will be both in the near future!
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,759
16 Aug 2022 #1,139
@Bratwurst Boy
What I am finding with everyone favorite idiot from Chicagoland is that he really is simply just an idiot who has a man crush on Putin. He likes war, he likes Russians, and essentially he is an anarchist. The same qualities in Putin are what he see's in Trump. Just stupid men who got other stupid people to put them into power.

The easiest solution to this is to kill Putin. That is the most expedient way to not only end the war, but to give Russian people their freedom. The problem is, there is no one in Russia smart enough to make things better once Putin is dead, and no one with balls enough to actually do it.

Bobko is a Russian, I expect his fanaticism either to be genuine or out of fear from the system. Either way, because he is Russian his feelings can be respected even when disagreeable.

What exactly has Putin done to make Russia and Russians better off than they were? Nothing.
Przelotnyptak1 - | 233
16 Aug 2022 #1,140
quote=Novichok]Somehow, Russia is expected to ignore the snake at its door.[/quote]
Should Poland ignore the snake at its door, or should I say mangled GLISTA; indulging in the dubious theories of dangers facing putrid
Russia. Yeah, that whole world knows that Rusia was one step from being invaded by mighty Ukrainian forces, so they launched a purely defensive but brutal war of defensive destruction. Is that what your logic dictates?


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