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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades


Przelotnyptak1 - | 272
23 Jun 2022 #14,461
Here is my short version of your brilliant post, Velund:

Velund's patriotic feelings are wrong but acceptable; I don't see it this way but have no problem. Velund is Russian, after all. But, on the other hand, your slavish Russian arss kissing smell like rotten egg.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
23 Jun 2022 #14,462
your slavish Russian arss kissing smell like rotten egg

That's exactly what I tried to explain to Rich some time ago, but it only got me an "A" warning. :)
jon357 71 | 20,468
23 Jun 2022 #14,463
Velund's patriotic feelings are wrong but acceptable

Wrong but partly understandable.

I'd not say acceptable since supporting our condoning mass rape of women and children, the deliberate killing of unarmed civilians with their hands tied behind their backs or mass deportations is not in any sense being patriotic.

Nobody who loved their country and culture would want it to do that now in the twentyfirst century.

It is not patriotism, it is evil.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,439
23 Jun 2022 #14,464
We learn from the best.

You were there first with your Red Army. Long 20 years before German Nazi. You should be glad you are better at something.

It is not patriotism, it is evil.

The point is even if disagree with Russians here. I can understand their stance.
All those petty trolling apologist for Russia coming mostly from Yanks( at least from no Russians) rubs me the wrong way. What is wrong with those people?
Tacitus 2 | 1,772
23 Jun 2022 #14,465
We learn from the best.

If only you had also learnt from us that such behaviour is neither profitable nor well-looked upon in the long run. This war is a stain upon Russians for generations.

typically chaotic and resulting more from lack of discipline

Perhaps it used to be, but what the genocide commited in Ukraine seems rather professional and organized. Deporting people, forced adoptions, starvation as a weapon of war, random and targeted murder of civilians. Besides, we know from Katyn that the Russians are well used to destroying a nation's intelligencia.
Crow 153 | 10,768
23 Jun 2022 #14,466
Its glad to me to see NATO and EU reprimanded by Russia. Very glad.
jon357 71 | 20,468
23 Jun 2022 #14,467
professional and organised

It seems entirely organised and planned, as does their scorched earth policy and ethnic cleansing.

All those petty trolling apologist for Russia coming mostly from Yanks( at least from no Russians) rubs me the wrong way

Agreed.

Russians here. I can understand their stance.

If it were the government of UK or Poland committing genocide, carrying out mass executions, mass rape (occluding of children) and forced abductions of civilians here in Europe (which would admittedly be very hard to imagine) would we go online to a forum relating to a neighbouring country to the place we were doing that and write thousands of words trying to justify that? I wouldn't
Novichok 3 | 7,107
23 Jun 2022 #14,468
All those petty trolling apologists for Russia coming mostly from Yanks...

...who remember how the French poodles and the Stiff Lips dragged the US into two already. This one is all yours.
So, instead of posting crap here, go to Ukraine to fight the barbarians all by yourself. You do have at least one good eye and two hands?

There...You are good to go...Send me a postcard when you and that other hero get there.
Novichok 3 | 7,107
23 Jun 2022 #14,469
Quoting:

'Sent to certain death': Why growing numbers of Ukrainian servicemen are refusing to fight on the Donbass frontlines
Many Ukrainian soldiers are terrified by combat conditions and are asking for help on social media


And the comments:

They know that it is an exercise in futility! Why choose to die for the Globalists?

Poor Ukrainian men don't know that their wives, sisters, and daughters are all getting banged by western men and they have no intention of coming back. They are all dying for Soros and nothing else.

They will have died for nothing.


Yeap, Z-P=0, and dying for 0 is beyond stupid. See Crimea.

youtu.be/h9RwYPsVpfM

I never thought that oppressed people can fake happiness so well...
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,439
23 Jun 2022 #14,470
I wouldn't

It is about Russia and Russians they love to feel important no matter the reson.

.who remember

Look that was a rethorical question. I know there are in Yankee land lots of morons who know nothing and understand even less. they have what is left from their freedom of speech right and they missuse it by talking rubbish and are even proud of it.

Then there are trolls.
jon357 71 | 20,468
23 Jun 2022 #14,471
youtu.be

YouTube tripe.

they missuse it by talking rubbish and are even proud of it.

The crazy ones. Then they whine when they get sued and lose everything like that Alex Jones guy.

There are a few so-called 'independent journalists' (all of them with links to r*ssia Today or Sputnik News) who are likely to be facing lengthy prison sentences in various countries for "interviewing' prisoners of war under duress.

I suppose they could always stay in r*ssia.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,425
23 Jun 2022 #14,473
@Novichok

The Ukrainians are suffering.
That is a given.
But they have a reason to fight.
The young Russian cannon fodder dont.
Which is why Ukraine will win this war.
And before you ask, because I know that you will.
A Ukrainian win is preserving their country with only limited and minor losses to the territory they had before the Russian invasion.
Anything more would be a major victory
Novichok 3 | 7,107
23 Jun 2022 #14,474
But they have a reason to fight.

...for zero. As in Z-P=0. Sad, isn't it, that some hotheads can actually leave the safety of their homes and risk their lives for sh*it.

Or do they fight for Zemocracy? Are you planning to join them?
Chicagoan
24 Jun 2022 #14,475
The crazy ones. Then they whine when they get sued and lose everything like that Alex Jones guy.

Thinking differently isn't crazy. That's how we progress by thinking differently.

Novichok and Dirk Diggler aren't yanks they're Polish Expats. They reflect Polish thinking; Poles over think everything until black becomes white and white becomes black. And that's why Poland was partitioned. And why the partition lasted as long as it did.
Novichok 3 | 7,107
24 Jun 2022 #14,476
Don't ever tell me what I am or what I am not. Try to concentrate on my posts.
mafketis 34 | 11,904
24 Jun 2022 #14,477
No one's reacting to Ukraine officially receiving EU candidate status (along with Moldova)?

I like this take:

twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1540068776443609089
Alien 8 | 1,285
24 Jun 2022 #14,478
Turkey ie since 1999 officially EU candidate.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,238
24 Jun 2022 #14,479
@Chicagoan
I dont think it is over thinking at all. I think it is simply a few people who are so mentally challenged that they can not possibly see anything other than their own views as being the "right" views that everyone should have. We have a young alleged college grad who is also clearly a liar, and an old brainwashed Russian worshipper because it fits his personal narrative. Thats all really. The rest are either Russian, or non Poles who are delusional.

While I do not agree with the Russians who post here, I do understand their patriotism for their country. I respect it, but do not support their efforts. While their arguments are tedious and repetitive most of the time they try to make sense of what Russia and Putin are doing while walking the party line. These other idiots who are not Russian though, who try to spout an opinion like they know it all, are a problem.

IF the French in WW2 had found people spouting their opinions in France to support the Nazi's I wonder what would have happened? Oh wait, we know what happened, they were outed and many of them disappeared. Nazi sympathizers were dealt with and this is exactly what should happen to Russian sympathizers today. Especially those who are in the west and enjoying the western lifestyle that is provided to them by the efforts such as what is happening in Ukraine. These sympathizers should simply be found, and summarily deported to Poland where they allege to have come from or Russia so they can join the Russian effort personally.
amiga500 2 | 1,377
24 Jun 2022 #14,480
No one's reacting to Ukraine officially receiving EU candidate status (along with Moldova)?

I know that Australian Broadcasting Corporation only quoted Morawiecki out of all the EU leaders in their article, and since it's based off APP/Reuters that would have been the case worldwide. This aligns to what Morawiecki said that Poland is the leading proponent of Ukraine joining the EU and massive diplomatic effort was exerted on the hesitant in the EU Council to reach unanimity. Polska and Ukraine; Stronger together!

I think we probably owe Hungary and Bulgaria a favour now though.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,481
French Foreign Legion lands in Estonia as a response to Russian provocations at Estonian border...

fakt.pl/polityka/francja-wyslala-na-estonie-spadochroniarzy-z-legii-cudzoziemskiej/rtp9nwq
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,482
A little news digest for the "Russia's Collapsing" team.

Russia is neither collapsing (not immediately anyway) nor isolated (not completely anyway). The EU is suffering from the sanctions almost as much as Russia and the war is still in full swing. Also, there is a bigger risk of escalation at the moment (see FFL landing in Estonia and more weapons arriving in Ukraine).

OK. I am assuming that most sane people would rather avoid World War III. So where do we go from here?

Russia is not even willing to start peace talks, as far as I know, and the West will not give up on independent Ukraine. Does anyone see a plausible way out of it?
Bobko 11 | 1,007
24 Jun 2022 #14,483
@GefreiterKania

Ukraine could still just lose, you know. By lose I mean accept Russia's demands.

Not everyone is on Poland and Lithuania's wavelength of "no negotiations with terrorists". Instead, Biden says "we must help the Ukrainians negotiate the best peace they can". Macron says, "no war has ever ended without diplomacy". That's likely why Biden sends only 4 HIMARS, and Macron sends just 6 CAESARS.

Though Ukraine's collapse will be sad, the West will still be able to look at itself in the mirror and say "we did all we could". Was this not the purpose, in the end, of the very strange visit by Draghi, Macron, and Scholz to Kiev? To say, "we won't send you enough weapons to win, but you are now able to tell your people you won EU candidacy when even Georgia did not"?

It was a transparent attempt to push Zelensky toward negotiations, by further building up his domestic political capital. He must surely be telling them for the past months - "if I concede territories to Putin my people will eat me". Now papa Scholz and Macron have partially solved his dilemma, by giving him a nice fat candy to stick in the mouth of his citizens, and hopefully shut them up if they don't like the idea of negotiations.

What's especially cynical is that everyone understands this candidacy is meaningless (ask Erdogan), but pretends anyway that it is the second coming of Jesus Christ to make a sh!t situation look better.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,238
24 Jun 2022 #14,484
@Bobko
Biden announced yesterday 4 more HIMARS to Ukraine, and Germany now sending what was promised. Stop thinking Russia can or will win when they have already lost. Regardless of land conquests, Russia will be locked out of the west for decades now. The west will figure out how to deal with gas prices, they have before. Ukraine wont fall to Russia, Russia simply does not have enough forces to occupy Ukraine. The arrogance of Russia after accomplishing nothing so far is really funny.

@GefreiterKania
No one wants WW3, but if it comes it comes. No one is afraid of Russia and that what Russia does not understand France is a land of pu$$ies, Germany finally finding some balls, and Biden wont dictate how diplomacy goes. As it is now, there are enough weapons and ammunition for this war to go on to the end of the year. And the EU will not abandon Ukraine after this. So if there is war, there is war, everyone is preparing for it now.

The only way out of this is a clear defeat for one side or another. Either way, tensions will not abate for many years no matter who wins. If its Russia though, you can count on sanctions staying in place until they are so isolated they have no choice but to change. No western goods or opportunity for ten years or so should cause civil uprisings.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,485
By lose I mean accept Russia's demands.

What are Russia's demands though? Demilitarization and denazification? Russia doesn't look like she's willing to start any peace negotiatons; I haven't heard about any such attempt anyway.

we won't send you enough weapons to win, but you are now able to tell your people you won EU candidacy

So, you think that what we discussed before - Russia getting some lands in the east/south and a smaller Ukraine being admitted to the EU - is a viable solution, right? But I am not sure if you're right about deliveries of weapons to Ukraine; even Germany starts sending heavy weapons now (those PzH 2000 howitzers have just arrived) and this might suggest a change of Europe's policy in this regard.

What's especially cynical is that everyone understands this candidacy is meaningless

If it's meaningless, then it's not a "a nice fat candy" at all.

No one wants WW3, but if it comes it comes. So if there is war (...) everyone is preparing for it now.

I know, you don't have to tell me that. No other country is spending such amounts of money on defense, compared to GDP, as Poland is at the moment.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,486
The only way out of this is a clear defeat for one side or another.

So we better prepare for a long war then. Oh, well..
Bobko 11 | 1,007
24 Jun 2022 #14,487
What are Russia's demands though?

Demands are evolving. Today Lavrov said that if and when negotiations start, they will have to take into account "realities on the ground". I gather that's a pretty transparent way of saying that we get whatever we control at that point.

Demilitarization, to me, is meaningless if Ukraine can be pumped full of weapons again the minute hostilities stop. Denazification is stupid, but I'm sure they will extract some language from the Ukrainians which can be shown to especially Nazi-obsessed compatriots of mine that the "mission was accomplished". It may mean disbanding the volunteer battalions that got integrated into the AFU, or them writing in some language into their constitution which rules out equivalencies between USSR and Third Reich. Again, to me it's a bunch of hot air. Territories is what this is all about.

Russia doesn't look like she's willing to start any peace negotiatons

Strange. In the news I read it's the opposite. Lavrov complaining that the Ukrainians decided to leave negotiations in Turkey after getting some "assurances" of support from Johnson and Biden. The negotiations had been at some promising point apparently (Russia wasn't doing too hot at that point either). Officially, the Ukrainians have been saying - "no negotiations after Bucha", first. Then they said, "no more negotiations with orcs after the theater bombing in Mariupol". Finally, they did come back, but with some list of negotiation points that Russia doesn't even want to look at. Some sh!t about returning to Feb. 24 lines, and discussing special status for Donbass (and more or less surrendering Crimea). Who are they joking? That train has left the station long ago.

But I am not sure if you're right about deliveries of weapons to Ukraine

Podolyak, the advisor to Zelensky that covers this direction, has been saying they need at least a 1,000 heavy caliber guns. The numbers so far are something like 10% of that. PzH 2000 or Caesar, it doesn't equal 10x or 20x of a normal 155mm gun. It shoots maybe 2-3 rounds a minute more, is a little more mobile, and has some armor from light weapons. It's not some Wunderwaffe.
GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,488
I gather that's a pretty transparent way of saying that we get whatever we control at that point.

But, apart from Donbass and Crimea, you are controlling some lands at the moment with Ukrainian majority, lands on which Russia doesn't have any legitimate claim. Surely you can't expect Ukraine to just give them up?

Strange. In the news I read it's the opposite.

Strange indeed. I bet media on both sides are distorting the real image of the conflict and ordinary people like you and I are getting only very limited information.

Podolyak

...is exaggerating, for obvious reasons, so the current numbers are probably closer to 20-25% of what Ukraine needs, and if Germany starts sending heavy weapons now, it means that there will definitely be more supplies coming. I understand that you would like to see a quick, clean victory for Russia, but it is very unlikely.
Bobko 11 | 1,007
24 Jun 2022 #14,489
Strange indeed

Little people like us will be the last to know what's actually going on at those talks. It's irritating to see them slapping each other high fives (true story), and cracking jokes (also true story) while sipping on Evian in 5-Star hotel lobbies. Seeing sleezeball Abramovich there, just completes the picture. I suppose that's diplomacy though.

*I wish that ape, Arakhamia would stop wearing a baseball cap to the negotiations. In general it would be nice if Ukrainians wore suits. BTW, this Arakhamia guy is from Sochi, and as recently as 2010s was adviser to a member of the Russian Duma. How the hell he ended up on the other side of the table I do not understand.







GefreiterKania 11 | 1,477
24 Jun 2022 #14,490
Little people like us will be the last to know what's actually going on at those talks.

Exactly.

And, yeah, the guy in the baseball cap does indeed look like pół dupy zza krzaka.


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