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Abortion still under control in Poland


natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #211
: )
And especially to me, as pretty much the sole female contributor of any substance ; )

I'm just a softie. Love babies and would never harm them, and know, from having been pregnant, that as soon as they are there, they are there, however tiny.

People leave us - they die. That is very harsh. But the balancing side is new life. It is what makes us feel ok, what helps us with the hard bits of life. So those tiny little flames of life - they are there to help us. I think. Feel. Not any belief system or religion - just my own conclusion.

Starter for ten:
Have you ever heard a mother say of her three-year-old 'God, I wish I'd known - I would definitely have aborted her?'
Have you ever heard a woman say 'God, I wish I'd known - I would never have had an abortion' ? ...
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Oct 2012  #212
If so, then do you consider it not an abortion before 6 weeks?

OK, let's make it easy to understand for you. I'm against senseless screwing around without caring any consequences of it, period.
I already said that I accept abortion in certain cases (rape, incest etc.). I would accept abortion in several other cases (not out of convenience though) if it was done in the first 6 weeks but according to what I read about it, "most terminations in the United States occur within the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy" and that means, many of them (is to assume) definately after 6 weeks and this is unacceptable. To me,you're alive when your heart is beating, simple as that.

I am sure that people who were forced to murder someone do not have it easy.

and I'm sure, most of them weren't forced to murder anyone and still did it... because it's natural...

You never have to agree with me, we are discussing different points of view

of course we do and we're very serious about it too, are we, Sean BM? ...

Everyone? even Nuns? :)

SeanBM 35 | 5,808
15 Oct 2012  #213
To me,you're alive when your heart is beating, simple as that.

So why are you against abortions if it's before 6 weeks if it's not alive?

and I'm sure, most of them weren't forced to murder anyone and still did it... because it's natural...

now you are just trying to put words in my mouth.

of course we do and we're very serious about it too, are we, Sean BM? ...

You said we are here to reproduce, when clearly some people don't reproduce.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
15 Oct 2012  #214
Rape is violence and torture being forced on another unwilling human. However, we know for certain that both "participants" (for lack of a better word) are definitely measurably independent humans. For every woman with a negative experience of abortion there are two with a positive one. The thing is we shouldn't be working on anecdotes, we should be looking at studies.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10920466
Here's a scientific research paper from the university of California which states that most women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression.

With respect, are you a woman? Of course I know that the fertile period is more than a day. Of course I know that the body can ovulate almost on demand.

I am a woman, and I've never been able to tell when I'm ovulating. Sometimes I can't even tell when I'm going to start my period. We are all different, I'm pleased that you know, it makes it easy for you.. but honestly I really don't.

So tell me, because I am very interested: how does a woman know, if she has never been pregnant and never had a child? And don't load it with 'put through' ...?

I use the words "put through" because it would be the correct term if a woman is forced to continue with pregnancy she wishes not to have. As we are only discussing women who wish to have abortions but are denied them I can't see how this is loaded. I would use the exact same terms if a woman was forced into an abortion.... in that case she would be "put through" that also.

As the study above shows there are definite markers to those that will suffer psychologically after an abortion, and a history of depression is one of them. The thing is, as the study says, we don't know if the depression is caused by abortion, or if the underlying depressional tendencies (low self esteem, poor outlook on life etc) cause the regret. Either way the figures show that after two years, the vast majority are not depressed, and the majority do not regret the decision.

Sorry to sound heated, but really, some balance is needed here, in all of this.

Quite, which is why I've provided an unbiased scientific study for you to read
archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=481643
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #215
Natasia,I have heard a woman say that she wished she'd never had an abortion.I've never heard one say she wished that she would have aborted her child.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
15 Oct 2012  #216
I believe that women are not told the truth before abortion, and that therefore a lot suffer in a way that they shouldn't have to.

Well I think we all agree that education is the best way to inform people of the repercussions of their actions and choices.

I had religion class with a nun in Ireland when I was15. She played videos of interviewed women who had abortions and they testified that they could hear the baby screaming inside them (not even close to possible). She also told us that an abortion is done by medication which melts the baby or by something like a wire coat hanger that is inserted into the woman which is twisted around and scrambles the babies brains.

Natasia,I have heard a woman say that she wished she'd never had an abortion.

I'd assume that a woman who had a baby she didn't want would put her child up for adoption.
I mean it's not a simple either or scenario.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #217
GabiDaHun,it would be more like she put herself through it,by not being careful.You're making it sound like she would be forced to be pregnant.If she hadn't got pregnant she wouldn't be pregnant.
natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #218
I've never heard one say she wished that she would have aborted her child.

Thank you. That is my entire point made.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
15 Oct 2012  #219
GabiDaHun,it would be more like she put herself through it,by not being careful.

Again, the majority of women (taken from US studies) became pregnant through contraception failure, the majority of the rest of them did not use protection so because they were misinformed and/or ill educated (ie.... "you can feel when you're ovulating"). So in the vast majority of cases it's not about "not being careful". It's about contraception failure and dis/mis-information.

^^^
The study and figures are linked up there somewhere. Go find em!

I feel like I'm constantly repeating myself :(

I'd assume that a woman who had a baby she didn't want would put her child up for adoption.

Exactly.

To me,you're alive when your heart is beating, simple as that.

Just seen this. What do you make of the beating heart they grew in a lab without a body?
youtube.com/watch?v=j9hEFUpTVPA
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Oct 2012  #220
So why are you against abortions if it's before 6 weeks if it's not alive?

Read again what I said above and come back.

now you are just trying to put words in my mouth

whatever keeps your mouth from talking, man LOL

You said we are here to reproduce, when clearly some people don't reproduce.

damn, you're really a tough case, man LOL. Of course some people don't reproduce for example because they can't or any other reason but it doesn't mean that reproduction isn't our goal.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #221
GabiDaHun,my bad,I have to admit that contraception failure is a different scenario.I'm talking about not being careful.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
15 Oct 2012  #222
I know, but there's this misconception that abortions are done because people weren't careful, but actually, this is only the case in a minority of incidents. Most of the women who abort have just been plain unlucky.
natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #223
and they testified that they could hear the baby screaming inside them (not even close to possible).

It is possible that the intense emotion they felt, felt like that.

She also told us that an abortion is done by medication which melts the baby or by something like a wire coat hanger

Not far off. I have never really looked into it, but enough to understand that 12 weeks and under, surgical abortion, they inject Pygmy poison into the woman's stomach to open the cervix, then use a hook to rupture the pregnancy and then they suction everything out.

At later stages, babies are 'born' alive, and are killed once out. There is a practice of surgical scissors being used to mash the baby's skull and make it easier to get out. Honestly, I am not making this up. That nun wasn't so far off. Look it up, if you have the heart for it. I have never got past a couple of not-nice photos and the scissors fact. Didn't want to know more.

I'd assume that a woman who had a baby she didn't want would put her child up for adoption.

Don't assume that. The woman might not want to go through pregnancy to full term, delivery baby, hold and love for a second, then have it ripped away from her. Seems an easier option never to see the baby.

but honestly I really don't.

Which is fine, but as your whole point is how we should respect the individual woman's experience, not sure how you think it OK to make statements such as

If any women are reading this, who think they can magically "tune in" to their body, they'd be wrong.

Is that not you telling other women how they should - nay, can only - think and feel, based on your own, individual experience? Mine is different to yours. We might share the same sex, but we are very different. I am tuned to my body's reactions and what is going on. I swim every morning, and I can measure by my energy, mood and even how cold or otherwise the water feels, what stage I am at in the month. That is my experience. You can't tell me I am wrong. It's like me telling you you might think you speak English but in fact you speak Chinese. It is nonsense.

I am not lucky in this sensitivity - I just listen!

Most of the women who abort have just been plain unlucky.

?
You have sex. You might get pregnant. You get pregnant. That is not unlucky. Unlucky is a bucket of concrete falls off some scaffolding on your head. Unlucky is you don't smoke and you get lung cancer. It is not that you have sex and you get pregnant.
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Oct 2012  #224
Just seen this

listen Miss GDH, as I said earlier, there will be always people pro and against abortion. The first mainly because they have a very personal reason to defend it, like for example, after I became pregnant, obviously it's smart to find an excuse for myself to make my life easy to live with and there are others like me, who believe that adult people should be making adult decisions and live with the consequences of their actions. That means, if you sleep with someone, you should be aware of the possibility of becoming pregnant and since there are many things you can do to avoid pregnancy, there's absolutely no need for abortion.If you were adult enough to sleep with a guy, you should be also adult enough to raise a child, right?
natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #225
Exactly.

Have you ever been pregnant?

That means, if you sleep with someone, you should be aware of the possibility of becoming pregnant

You said it. I agree. 'Unlucky' my arse.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #226
GabiDaHun,Of those cases you don't know how many people are saying that they used protection and how can it be proven that it's contraception failure.
natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #227
They say giving birth is equivalent to having a limb severed off.

What idiots say that? Presumably far easier to have a leg chopped off. My father had his chopped off, and he said it was a piece of cake.

Giving birth really is something that is an individual experience. I have given birth twice. First time a nightmare, second time I sang Onwards Christian Soldiers in my head (non-religiously - just for the beat), walked up and down, and gave birth in 7 minutes, standing up. It was good, OK, fine, something one could do again without being too much bothered by it. I guess that is how it is supposed to be.

And at the end I was plus gorgeous baby, rather than minus gangrenous leg.

Gabi Da Hun - does that mean you are German?
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
15 Oct 2012  #228
I am not lucky in this sensitivity - I just listen!

You listen, yeah. But not everyone can, or has the ability to and this isn't about swimming every morning or measuring energy - this is about cold, hard facts. As you said we're all different, and saying that any woman can do as you do is not correct - it's also dangerous. If a woman reading this thinks that she can do as you, and gets preggers it's not going to be happy ending. If a woman's going to have sex the provably safest option is contraception. As the NHS states, your rhythm method has a realistic reliability of 75%, and that's after measuring body temperature etc.. for months on end, where as condoms and the pill are 98-99% effective, immediately. The advice you are giving may (not will) result in more abortions - something which nobody wants, so please be careful about what you say on a public forum. I'm not trying to take away from your personal experience, but seeing as we were talking about not getting pregnant and using contraception, I think the safest method should be advocated. I'm sorry if you felt that I wasn't being respectful to you, but your method is just more risky, and not everyone can realistically do it.

Unlucky is you don't smoke and you get lung cancer. It is not that you have sex and you get pregnant.

No, unlucky is you have PROTECTED sex and get pregnant. Not any sex, protected sex.

I'd say, that if you have a 1% chance of something happening to you, having taken precautions against it, that's pretty unlucky no matter what "it" might be.

If you go for an enjoyable drive, and plan to do so at the quietest point at night, don't speed, take all the precautions, indicate, check your mirros etc, and you still crash does this mean that you should "never have been driving in the first place" and "you were bound to crash" It just means you were unlucky, wrong place, wrong time, wrong box of condoms. Manufacturing fault.

Gabi Da Hun - does that mean you are German?

Hungarian :)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
15 Oct 2012  #229
It is possible that the intense emotion they felt, felt like that.

Feel like it? they were not talking about emotions and it certainly isn't something to misinform young teens in a classroom with.

understand that 12 weeks and under, surgical abortion

Ah come on, that's very different from a coat hanger and agian in the disguise of "education".

At later stages, babies are 'born' alive, and are killed once out.

These people had their abortions in England not down a dark ally.

The woman might not want to go through pregnancy to full term, delivery baby, hold and love for a second, then have it ripped away from her

I was trying to say that there isn't just a woman who wishes she never had an abortion and the other alternative only being that she wished she never had the child (it was implied she kept the child).

I am tuned to my body's reactions and what is going on.

A woman tried to have sex with me without protection using the calendar, not in a million years would I do that.

since there are many things you can do to avoid pregnancy, there's absolutely no need for abortion.

i would strongly argue not enough, the snip is off the cards and RCC tells every Catholic that condoms, the pill are immoral.

You have sex. You might get pregnant. You get pregnant. That is not unlucky.

It is if you use protection.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #230
GabiDaHun,ok so what if it happens through unprotected sex,is it still the right to choose?
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Oct 2012  #231
and RCC tells every Catholic that condoms, the pill are immoral

btw. I'm a baptist.

Definitely contraception before abortion!!!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
15 Oct 2012  #232
I totally agree.

And you said it would never happen ;)
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Oct 2012  #233
better late than never, right ;-)
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
15 Oct 2012  #234
Have you ever been pregnant?

No,thankfully. But if I do become pregnant I wouldn't mind having the option I'm very very careful, and have known all my life I don't want kids. Does not being pregnant make my opinion somehow less valid? And if that's the case, going back to the OP, can we just tell the men in the Sejm to shut the hell up?

GabiDaHun,ok so what if it happens through unprotected sex,is it still the right to choose?

I'd say yes, because how can we ever prove who had protected sex, and who had unprotected sex?

And even then there's the whole "where does the life begin anyway?", and "when do we assign personhood?" stuff, and the rather morally dubious "my morals trump yours" stuff too....

My stance is: Personal choice is personal.

contraception before abortion!!!And you said it would never happen ;)

I think that's something the whole of the world will agree on. See, abortion issues CAN unite us. ;)
natasia 3 | 368
15 Oct 2012  #235
this isn't about swimming every morning or measuring energy - this is about cold, hard facts.

No, that particular comment was about my own personal experience. The cold, hard fact that I can tell what my hormones are doing. I have the only measures that are available to me, such as how I feel.

I have said, several times, that contraception is incredibly easy - just DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK GETTING PREGNANT.

Easy. A fact.

I was not advocating any rhythm method ... I was just saying that you were wrong when you said no woman can have any idea about when she is fertile.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
15 Oct 2012  #236
GabiDaHun,what if they themselves say that it was from unprotected sex.There would no motivation for them to lie about this.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
16 Oct 2012  #237
better late than never, right ;-)

So long as there is a means of communication I think people always find common ground.

The In Vitro one is weird, i mean say you have a couple that can't conceive and still want their own baby but the church put pressure on the government to decrease that from happening.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation#Catholic_objections

It just seems unfair.

"where does the life begin anyway?", and "when do we assign personhood?"

We don't seem to be getting very far on those ones.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
16 Oct 2012  #238
just DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK GETTING PREGNANT.

Are you now telling me why I should or shouldn't have sex? Really? Sex isn't just about getting pregnant, it's not just about mechanics, it's about a bond between you and the person you love.

It's perfectly easy to separate pregnancy from sex... that why we invented contraception in the first place. I don't see where you get off on telling people not to have sex, and how they should see it! That's just not on. If fertilization is the most important part or consequence of sex to you, then so be it. It isn't mine, and I'm not going to be bullied into seeing it as such, and I'm not going to feel bad for having sex out of love, but not wanting kids at the same time. Many women feel the same.

GabiDaHun,what if they themselves say that it was from unprotected sex.There would no motivation for them to lie about this.

I'm sorry. You've lost me.
TheOther 5 | 3,643
16 Oct 2012  #239
it's about a bond between you and the person you love.

No bond necessary: there's also something called sex for fun...
p3undone 8 | 1,135
16 Oct 2012  #240
GabidaHun,What if they had unprotected sex and admitted it,but wanted the abortion because they simply didn't want to deal with the responsibility that was the result of their not using contraception.

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