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Abortion still under control in Poland


jon357 66 | 17,078
9 Oct 2016 #1,261
complete nuclear families were the norm, f

Not any better than an alternative, misery of families where couples had to stay together for convention, no matter how much e violence and dysfunctionality, abandoned women who had no recourse to divorce and of course the misery of no legal abortion.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Oct 2016 #1,262
misery of families

Not having been there you can ahistorically impose your current biases and phobias on a bygone period you are personally unfamiliar with. Sure, all kinds of things sporadically occurred. The things you mention were typical of an underclass of slum-dwellerism drunks, work shirkers and wife beaters, but the average family was tight knit. Premarital intimacies were rare and the average marriage age was 20-24. Compared to today's confused and unhappy kids, fatherless households and patchwork families, those can indeed be called the good old days.
jon357 66 | 17,078
9 Oct 2016 #1,263
n underclass of slum-dwellersm drunks, work shirkers and wife beaters

So blaming the poor for being poor are you? And denying them the ability to legally terminate a pregnancy no doubt.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
9 Oct 2016 #1,264
drunks, work shirkers and wife beaters

So you equate the poor with drunks, work shirkers nad wife beaters, do you? In fact back in the day there were also the honest poor, probably the majority such as a widow taking in washing to raise her 8 or 9 kids.
jon357 66 | 17,078
9 Oct 2016 #1,265
Don't be silly, Po. Good that you agree with me though that the 'good old days' were anything but that.

And yes, much better that old primitive ideas on abortion are fast receding.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
9 Oct 2016 #1,266
You are trying to simplify something that is not that straightforward.

Not really, that is pretty straightforward if you get to the chase.

...the same way as a decision being made to terminate the pregnancy of a mother whose life would be put at risk

I don't get what you try to say here Chemikiem. Its simple only if a life is on stake we can talk about extenuating circumstances. Other qualifiers from a leaflet "life is not that simple" do not count.

You mean abortion for whatever reason. I can't say it would never happen in Poland

Exactly. No reason to pave the way for it with but... but... I meant good - is there?

How can we have a debate on abortion without mentioning the RCC,

Maybe by not mentioning it in every post? Especially that I don't expect you to share or take into account religious or moral arguments of the RCC.

But there wouldn't if the new laws had been passed!!! Yes, of course someone with an ectopic pregnancy

Geez, if such a pregnancy would be a threat to the mother's life than of course she would be given a choice in that matter. That one is obvious. Its logical as well. Otherwise all that going on wouldn't make any sense. Honestly Chemikiem it is so obvious that I don't even know what it is that you don't understand here?

To me it sound like a dumb propaganda of the lefties. Oh women will be forced to have children, Oh women life will be less worthy than that of the child, oh .....some more of nonsensical whine to scare slow witted people.

If the defence of an unborn child is build on premise that all human life is sacred and people have no right to kill others then it became blindingly obvius that that sanctity pertains to both a mother and a child. By a logical extension Eh?

I don't agree with a Downs child not having the right to live

In the light of your standing on the issue it comes down to your personal preference. You might be outvoted one day on this.

There is no societal consensus on the moral status of fetuses, especially in the early stages of pregnancy

I'm well aware of the fact and hence my argument shouldn't be read as a support of the proposed legislation but as argument what is right and what is wrong. However it is logical and irrefutable fact that so called foetuses are in fact children in the particular stage of their development.

Once people will get it, there'll be consensus. Only few ideologically biased evil worshipers would deny science and logic - primitive fanatics bringing back backwoods ideas from 2000 years in the past.
Crow 146 | 9,129
9 Oct 2016 #1,267
people, you know how they preventing abortion in Saudi Arabia? By vaginal mutilation or simple killing girl by stones. Its all in sharia people. Why am i telling this to you? Well, because of Poland`s EU membership and EU becoming Eurabia, as many many individuals already mentioned that, some seriously, some half jokingly but, step by step EU coming to it.

That is exactly the reason why i mentioned Kama sutra, already. That or Sharia. What would you? Neither? So, you would .... in the name of Christ? same way as THEY .... your ancestors and Svetovid in them, all in the name of Christ? And Svetovid had tolerance for sexual teachings. With teachings, girl hardly needed abortion.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
10 Oct 2016 #1,268
Once people will get it, there'll be consensus.

Once the world catches up to your insights, the issue will be settled.......

Odd, I keep thinking that when the world catches up to my insights the issue will be settled.

Meanwhile it is not logical or irrefutable that fetuses are "children"
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Oct 2016 #1,269
were anything but that.

They were bad only for pervs and weirdos who were justifiably stigmatised and kept in their place rather than allowed to run rampant and try to impose their views on the moral majority.
frogtastic - | 4
10 Oct 2016 #1,270
I think people may be missing the point here. Poland, much like most European countries, are currently in a population decline. Which basically means, kids born in Poland/Europe within the last 10 years and the next 10 - Once adults, will not be able to support the elderly/pensioners. Which would lead to higher tax, lower standard of living and worst case -> Collapse.

Granted this mess about abortion isn't the right way of going about increasing the population. But I assume their government has few options. There is already state funded IVF, millions pumped into child support and benefits. The economy in Poland is on the up, suffering little during the last financial collapse of 2009.
TheOther 5 | 3,758
10 Oct 2016 #1,271
...most European countries, are currently in a population decline. ... Once adults, will not be able to support the elderly/pensioners.

Keep in mind that this scenario will only be true for one generation. Once the Baby Boomers have passed away, the problem will not be as pressing anymore. What is wrong with a smaller population anyway? Countries like Poland, Germany, France or the UK are way overpopulated considering their area, and life would be much nicer with a little bit more ellbow space for everyone. Corporations will try to reduce their labor costs even further, so there's no need for a large pool of workers anymore. Blue collar jobs are already outsourced to cheap third-world countries.

When politicians complain about population decline, they actually mean the loss of power for them and their country. Shortsighted in my eyes.
Englishman 2 | 278
10 Oct 2016 #1,272
It seems to me the only argument against abortion that's based on morality rather than misogyny is the religious belief that life begins at conception. I say it's a religious belief because science doesn't support it.

Women who hold this view should not be forced to have abortions. And they're not. They, and men who share their views, should not be allowed to limit the freedoms of women whose views differ.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
10 Oct 2016 #1,273
I say it's a religious belief because science doesn't support it.

so foetus is not alive then yes? is bacteria life to you?
Ironside 50 | 10,940
10 Oct 2016 #1,274
I say it's a religious belief because science doesn't support it.

Wow, just give up and take part in discussion more suitable to your "needs", like a pop music or the last fashion maybe.

Meanwhile it is not logical or irrefutable that fetuses are "children"

prove it!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
10 Oct 2016 #1,275
respect for science

Science = Zyklon B, the A bomb, electric chair, lethal injections, abortions, eugenics, euthanasia and many otehr modern advancements.
jon357 66 | 17,078
10 Oct 2016 #1,276
Women who hold this view should not be forced to have abortions. And they're not

Which is key to it. Anti-abortionists try to impose their 'beliefs' on women. Pro-choice people do not.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
10 Oct 2016 #1,277
to impose their 'beliefs' on women

perhaps the difference is too subtle for you to detect but I for example am not bothered by beliefs of women - I am only against allowing them to have abortion except a few kinds of cases - I don't care what women choose to believe in

Science =

yeah science is all love, puppies and pink pet unicorns except DDT perhaps
jon357 66 | 17,078
10 Oct 2016 #1,278
I for example am not bothered by beliefs of women

Says it all, sadly.
TheOther 5 | 3,758
10 Oct 2016 #1,279
I for example am not bothered by beliefs of women

Seems that some catholic men don't mind to get some nookie before marriage and don't care much if having a little fun with their girlfriend has consequences. They refuse to take responsibility and take off; but only after telling their girl that abortion is not an option...
gumishu 11 | 5,605
10 Oct 2016 #1,280
is this tirade directed at me?
if so then I'm not catholic, and never had children - any more questions?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
10 Oct 2016 #1,281
I don't care what women choose to believe in

well that is a shame because all the women in Poland wrote to me and told me they are really concerned about what little tiny Gumishu thinks about this issue. Although they think the world of you, of course.
TheOther 5 | 3,758
11 Oct 2016 #1,282
is this tirade directed at me?

No, and it wasn't a tirade either. Have you actually read and understood what I wrote? We have some conservative members here with an unbearable holier-than-thou attitude. They think that a woman has no say when it comes to abortion, yet they are more than happy to get them pregnant without taking the responsibility afterwards. Hypocrites and bigots, the whole lot of them, and your post surely sounded as if you are part of that bunch.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
11 Oct 2016 #1,283
prove it!

I'm not going to waste time trying to prove a negative to someone who won't listen anyway.

Prove that fetuses are children by a list of non-genetic features.

A possible boundary - needing another's life processes to exist.

Fetus - pre-viability - yes

Fetus - post viability - no

so foetus is not alive then yes? is bacteria life to you?

Dude, the sperm and egg are both alive, so how can life 'begin' at conception?

Implantation is a better benchmark . About 50 per cent of all fertilized eggs (human beings to you?) fail to implant and the women is never technically pregnant.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
11 Oct 2016 #1,284
so how can life 'begin' at conception?

new DNA setup - new life , ok? won't you call a new born child a new separate life?

They think that a woman has no say when it comes to abortion, yet they are more than happy to get them pregnant

point to a single poster here with such an attitude - maybe I have missed something
mafketis 24 | 9,387
11 Oct 2016 #1,285
new DNA setup - new life , ok?

You do realize that many women undergo changes in DNA after childbirth.... should they be getting new ID's?

But putting that aside, how do feel about 50 % of all human life dying within a few hours/days of creation? Kind of..... weird.

I don't care what women choose to believe in

I'm sure they return the favor and don't care what you choose to believe and will continue to want the right to terminate unwanted pregnancies.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
11 Oct 2016 #1,286
You do realize that many women undergo changes in DNA

in the whole body? never heard of it to be honest and I quite doubt it

they return the favor and don't care what you choose to believe and will continue to want the right to terminate unwanted pregnancies

fortunately they are a minority right now according to latest polls
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Oct 2016 #1,287
Anti-abortionists try to impose

Anti-murderists try to impose their view on people who want to commit murder. They should mind their own buisness and come down off their moral high horse and let others do what they want. Pro-murderists are not forcing anyone to commit murder if they don't wnat to.
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Oct 2016 #1,288
Don't be so silly Po. Firstly, your 'murder' theory is far from accepted. Secondly, if it were true, how do you reconcile that with the PIS regime currently compromising on what you ridiculously consider 'murder'?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Oct 2016 #1,289
currently compromising

The compromise was clinched in 1993, so they are not CURRENTLY compromising on anything but together with PO nad Petru voted the ban into oblivion.
It was a mistake to reject the pro-abortionist proposal out of hand and send the ban to committee. Both should have been either rejected or sent to committee. Neither had a chance of passing.
jon357 66 | 17,078
11 Oct 2016 #1,290
CURRENTLY

Well, the law has remained unchanged during two failed PIS administrations so yes, they are currently compromising.


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