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Abortion still under control in Poland


p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Nov 2012 #601
Barney, For that very reason.I think that other than a threat to the woman's life or rape,then this should not be permitted.If they don't want a child then don't have unprotected sex.Abortion should not be permitted to be used as birth control imo.I'm not going to go over it as I have so many times on this thread.If you want to read some of my prior posts and then discuss it I will.there is other factors I've pointed out in regards to the father as well.
4 eigner 2 | 831
17 Nov 2012 #602
Yes. It's really that simple.

OK, I guess, you wouldn't have any problem with other people deciding whether you suppose to live or die then, right? or do you believe that your life is more precious than the life of an unborn child?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Nov 2012 #603
Barney,in the U.S. abortion is legal.Other than mitigating circumstances such as a threat to the mother or if she's been raped,I wish it weren't. In the case of rape,I wish she would keep the child,but I absolutely could not blame her for wanting an abortion in that situation.

I do not believe that abortion should be ok if it is because of carelessness.If you don't want a baby then don't have sex.If your going to have sex;use protection.Foreigner4 brought up a good point about education and it is the best tool imo.There are many people who are willing to adopt a baby,so many,who can't have children of their own.So it doesn't mean that the baby will definitely be brought into an unloved situation.

Since abortion is legal,then I believe that the father and the mother should have to be on the same page.If the father is legally responsible for the rearing of that child,I believe that if the father is willing to accept 100% responsibility for that child,then abortion should not be permitted.This absolves her from having the inconvenience of raising the child.

To those who say that it is her body and no one should have the right to tell her that she can't decide what to do with it.I say that in this situation we are talking about a body that is not hers.No one forced her to get pregnant.The father and mother should have to raise that child imo,but since this is not the case in the U.S. I feel that both should have to be on the same page about it.
natasia 3 | 368
17 Nov 2012 #604
There are many people who are willing to adopt a baby,so many who can't have children of their own.

I agree. It should be that if you get pregnant through carelessness and you say you don't want the baby, you have to give birth and then decide. If you still don't want it, the baby is adopted.

Now I bet THAT would halve the unwanted pregnancy rate overnight ...
TommyG 1 | 361
17 Nov 2012 #606
Yeah, righ! LOL :D I bet THAT would double the number of underground abortions. Either that or attempts at trying to force a miscarriage.
Banning things isn't the solution. Americans will know that from when they tried to ban alcohol - Prohibition was a great success!
Just leave it to the mothers and the doctors to decide because quite frankly, it's nobody elses business!
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Nov 2012 #607
TommyG, booze was not quite the same thing I'm sure you can agree with that,how could you actually make that comparison lol.Yes there are millions upon millions lining up at bootleg clinics lol:)Thanks for the laugh.
TommyG 1 | 361
17 Nov 2012 #608
how could you actually make that comparison

Easily. Banning things isn't the answer.

Thanks for the laugh.

You're very welcome;)
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Nov 2012 #609
unsafe abortions result in approximately 70 thousand maternal deaths and 5 million disabilities per year globally.

/wiki/Abortion
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Nov 2012 #610
SeanBM,we were talking about in the U.S. and he was comparing the prohibition to it.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Nov 2012 #611
I know and he has a very good point.
Banning things does nothing except put more people's lives at risk and drives it underground in to the hands of organised criminals.
It's been posted already, but just because countries make it ilegal does not change the amount of abortions taking place, either illegally or in neighbouring countries.

It applies to all countries not just the U.S.
TommyG 1 | 361
17 Nov 2012 #612
No, I wasn't. I said that:

Banning things isn't the solution. Americans will know that from when they tried to ban alcohol

Meaning that American's should know better than to agree with a comment such as the type Natasia had made.
Nice link SeanBM:)
p3undone 8 | 1,135
17 Nov 2012 #613
SeanBM,I'm speaking about the comparison only and that is not a good comparison.The numbers are no where near comparable.If it's assured that the baby will be provided for and she is absolved,what makes you so sure that abortion numbers would rise.The reasons that abortion numbers were high before,were because the child couldn't be provided for and because of moral issues.Moral issues do not come into play as it once did in this country anyway.I think it's possible that a woman who knows that she won't have to deal with the inconvenience and have a safe birth might,go ahead and deliver.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
17 Nov 2012 #614
abortion rates are similar in countries where the procedure is legal and in countries where it is not according to the World Health Organization

WHO

There are more but well links saying the same thing but I'm really just repeating myself now.

I try not to post unless I have something new to say but since it has been brought up again.

Why? which numbers are you talking about?

In the U.S.:
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

If it's assured that the baby will be provided for

Are you talking about 'IF' the father wants the child?
I don't know how orphans are in the U.S. but here in Poland, it's very difficult to adopt.
I know a few couples who have been on the waiting list for years.

I do not believe that abortion should be ok if it is because of carelessness.

This sounds like you want to punish some people. You can't say some can have abortions because they say their contraception didn't work and punish others who were stupid.
natasia 3 | 368
18 Nov 2012 #615
I bet THAT would double the number of underground abortions. Either that or attempts at trying to force a miscarriage.

First thing: we are not living in Ireland in the 1850s. Women are not going to be stoned to death if they have a child out of wedlock. And in the UK at least, we are so compliant that the idea of your standard Next-shopping, M&S-loving late 20-something even knowing what an 'underground abortion' is, is fairly unlikely. They go to the GP, and do what she says. So if the GP says 'Lovely! You're going to have a baby'!' the woman says 'Oh yes! Lovely'. It is like that here. Believe me.

In Poland ... there is more of a sense of self-determination, I know. So I guess women might there say 'Huj ... ok ... you don't want to sign the piece of paper ... I'll ask Magda to talk with Kamilek, who will be able to get Jacek to fix me up with some pills, and that will be that ... ' - and that, to be frank, is her choice.

If a woman is so stupid as to go for an unregularised abortion, without medical control, then on her own head be it, as far as I am concerned. Yes, I can understand it in Ireland in the 1850s. I can understand it in London in the 1960s. But not anywhere in the EU in 2012.
TommyG 1 | 361
18 Nov 2012 #616
What on Earth? So, it's ok to do that but not have an abortion?
Aren't you supposed to be pro-life? Isn't that also 'murder'?
And if a woman can't get an abortion or those magic pills from Jacek? What then? Jump down the stairs? Maybe something worse...?
Look if you don't personally want an abortion that's fine. Other woman have their lives and couldn't care less what you think about it.
natasia 3 | 368
18 Nov 2012 #617
And if a woman can't get an abortion or those magic pills from Jacek? What then? Jump down the stairs? Maybe something worse...?

If getting pregnant is that desperate a situation, she should make sure she doesn't get pregnant in the first place. Krotko na temat.
joanka - | 5
18 Nov 2012 #618
Exactly, no sex before marriage!!
TommyG 1 | 361
18 Nov 2012 #619
What! What is this the Middle Ages? Are we living in a Puritanical EU now? No contraception is 100% guaranteed. And 'accidents' do happen...
natasia 3 | 368
18 Nov 2012 #620
Not if you don't have sex.

The point is, pregnancy should be so respected and taken seriously that if getting pregnant is such a disaster, then the woman should not have sex in the first place. Or, if she does with contraception, she should accept that it isn't 100% effective, and if she happens to get pregnant, she should honour that.

This whole thing is about respect and honour. And easy abortion encourages lack of both.
TommyG 1 | 361
18 Nov 2012 #621
So, first you're saying women shouldn't have abortions. And now you're saying that they shouldn't have sex!
That's a basic human need! I agree with Pavlow on that one!
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Nov 2012 #622
SeanBM,how is it a punishment?You have sex,you made a conscious decision and brought a life in the world.How could this possibly be a punishment?it should be a miracle.It's sad that people would consider it a punishment.Why should a life be extinguished because the life is an inconvenience.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
18 Nov 2012 #623
.How could this possibly be a punishment?

If you force someone to do something against their will because you believe they should pay the penalty for their actions, that is a punishment.

Sperm is also "alive", the goal posts change position with our understanding.
joanka - | 5
18 Nov 2012 #624
Abortion should not be allowed but contraception should be for free ... as we are allowed to make choices :)
jon357 66 | 16,977
18 Nov 2012 #625
Most doctors and medical ethics specialists have no problem with it at all.
4 eigner 2 | 831
18 Nov 2012 #626
most people have no problems with doing anything at all, as long as they make money.

My question is, would you like other people to decide about your right to live or not? Do you believe all life is precious?
jon357 66 | 16,977
18 Nov 2012 #627
That depends if you consider a body that doesn't think to be truly alive. By the same logic nobody's life support machine would ever be switched off nor feeding withdrawn.

By the way, healthcare in your country may be all about money. In more developed societies there is less hysteria and more rational social policy.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
18 Nov 2012 #628
SeanBm,that's like saying it's a punishment if the Father is forced to pay child support.What would be said to him?If you didn't want to have to support a child,then you shouldn't have helped create the child.It's not like she is being forced to become pregnant and has to deliver the baby.We're talking about a life here.We're not talking about a woman forced to get a nose job she doesn't want.It is not the fault of the child,that the mother and father were careless.In the end it's the unborn who is punished if aborted.
4 eigner 2 | 831
18 Nov 2012 #629
a body that doesn't think to be truly alive. By the same logic nobody's life support machine would ever be switched off nor feeding withdrawn.

Since no one has clearly determined when a baby is alive inside the mother's womb, why would you decide to kill what's possibly alive, Jon?

In more developed societies .

btw, In more developed societies my a$$. I'm not giving you any reason to insult me or my country, so don't get it started, Jon.

We don't have to be, think and feel the same as you to be developed, got it? So, according to you if someone disagrees with you, he's a member of an underdeveloped society, right? I wonder, why a liberal and an open minded guy like you, has a problem with accepting the views and/or the way of life of other people? Learn to accept if you want to be accepted, Jon!!! (and I'm not a lib like you, Jon)
jon357 66 | 16,977
18 Nov 2012 #630
Or why would you force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want, especially when doctors agree there is no reason for the procedure not to be carried out?

If people don't want to have pregnancy terminations for whatever reason, religious, cultural, whatever, they don't have to have one. Their convictions a for them - and not to be imposed on others, especially in the face of medical evidence.

And by the way, where healthcare is concerned, your country is very much one of the least developed of the richer parts of the world.


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