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PIS Polish Party is desintegrating?


sobieski 107 | 2,128
5 Nov 2010 #1
It looks as if PIS has started a civil war within their own ranks. The Duck (or is it "laptop" Ziobro?) is starting to kick out everybody moderate. I suppose in the end only the ones who have a subscription on "Nasz Dziennik" will stay. Good move.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Nov 2010 #2
Whether one supported PiS or not, nearly everyone agreed Kaczynski was a good strategist. The death of his twin appears to have caused something to snap. Sacking 2 of his stars weeks ahead of an election (a strategist wiould have delayed the decison if he regarded it as inevitable) seems suicidal. Jarosław seems to have handed the victory to PO in the forthcoming local polls and next year's general election. Anyone know what to make of it?
A J 4 | 1,088
6 Nov 2010 #3
It looks as if PIS has started a civil war within their own ranks.

About time!

:)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Nov 2010 #4
If PiS ceases being a politically viable opposition party, then a vacuum will emerge and there will be no alternative to the gang of crooks, conmen and shysters knowen as PO and the ex-commies.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
6 Nov 2010 #5
Whether one supported PiS or not, nearly everyone agreed Kaczynski was a good strategist. The death of his twin appears to have caused something to snap. Sacking 2 of his stars weeks ahead of an election (a strategist wiould have delayed the decison if he regarded it as inevitable) seems suicidal. Jarosław seems to have handed the victory to PO in the forthcoming local polls and next year's general election. Anyone know what to make of it?

It's a bizzare move and completely inexplicable. PiS has solid policies (in terms of what appeals to the Polish electorate) outside of the undesirable aspects, but this is just going to turn off the "moderate" voters even more. Of course, if you believe the media, then Kaczynski has lost control of the party anyway.

Certainly, the only strategy that he got "right" was the Presidential campaign - and now one of the main architects of that campaign has been sacked. Sensible? No.

If PiS ceases being a politically viable opposition party, then a vacuum will emerge and there will be no alternative to the gang of crooks, conmen and shysters knowen as PO and the ex-commies.

What, and you think PiS are squeaky-clean? Hahahahaha. Let's not forget that PiS are led by a man who owed his freedom to a traitor for a father.

Anyway, it would seem that PiS will become content to win 25% of the vote and become a permanent feature in opposition. They're certainly not going to win any elections by sacking all the moderates, but the core vote that hates gays, capitalism, etc will always give them a decent percentage.
A J 4 | 1,088
6 Nov 2010 #6
They're certainly not going to win any elections by sacking all the moderates, but the core vote that hates gays, capitalism, etc will always give them a decent percentage.

I think they're going down the drain from the sounds of it. (Where they belong.)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Nov 2010 #7
Collective guilt? I thought that went out with Stalin. If so, then the sly and craft Adam Michnik should be ousted for coming from a family of traitors: father, mother and brother all conscious stalinist collaborators.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
6 Nov 2010 #8
I think they're going down the drain from the sounds of it. (Where they belong.)

To be fair, their core message (gays bad, welfare good) is always going to appeal to about 20-25% of the Polish population. The path they're going now is always going to do well enough to be the main opposition party - but the problem is that the SLD and PO will always do much better.

If so, then the sly and craft Adam Michnik should be ousted for coming from a family of traitors: father, mother and brother all conscious stalinist collaborators.

Doesn't change the fact that Kaczynski's father sold his former allies down the drain.

The obsession with Michnik is hilarious though. I mean, Michnik spent several years in jail - Kaczynski - none.
A J 4 | 1,088
6 Nov 2010 #9
To be fair, their core message (gays bad, welfare good) is always going to appeal to about 20-25% of the Polish population.

If it really takes such a small amount of creativity to gain approval of the citizenry to run a whole country like Poland, then maybe I should become a Polish citizen myself and get into politics before I'm old and grey! I don't know, but it seems to be a lucrative business lately.

but the problem is that the SLD and PO will always do much better.

And why would that be a problem?
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010 #10
It's all about demographics. If PiS can't attract younger voters, the party will fail through attrition.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Nov 2010 #11
We are a few steps from Greece. PO fools made almost 300 billion of debt within 3 years. In 2-3 years It will all start falling down, Tusk and that moustached village idiot will have to escape from the country anyway. Let them win the next elections, then they won't be able to escape from the responsibility for the mess they created.

Kaczynski - none.

Jaro didn't, Lech did, so your hatful insinuations go where they belong - down the toilet.
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010 #12
PO fools made almost 300 billion of debt within 3 years.

How'd they do that?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
6 Nov 2010 #13
If it really takes such a small amount of creativity to gain approval of the citizenry to run a whole country like Poland, then maybe I should become a Polish citizen myself and get into politics before I'm old and grey! I don't know, but it seems to be a lucrative business lately.

Yep, it's essentially Catholic-Socialism in nature.

And why would that be a problem?

Ah, I meant the problem for them. It's certainly no problem for me - keeping them out of power forever is no bad thing in my book ;)

We are a few steps from Greece. PO fools made almost 300 billion of debt within 3 years. In 2-3 years It will all start falling down, Tusk and that moustached village idiot will have to escape from the country anyway. Let them win the next elections, then they won't be able to escape from the responsibility for the mess they created.

May I remind you that Lech Kaczynski was constantly calling on the government to spend, spend, spend when they stopped spending? May I remind you of the way that PiS savagely attacked PO for not buying swine flu drugs because it was a waste of money? PiS wanted to spend their way out of the crisis, PO didn't.

Anyway, the cuts will come, and they'll affect many of the PiS supporters. No bad thing.

Jaro didn't, Lech did, so your hatful insinuations go where they belong - down the toilet.

Who said anything about Lech?
A J 4 | 1,088
6 Nov 2010 #14
It's all about demographics. If PiS can't attract younger voters, the party will fail through attrition.

Well, something just tells me they will attract less and less young voters in the future, simply because the youth usually tends to rebel against tradition.

Ah, I meant the problem for them.

Makes sense.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
6 Nov 2010 #15
The problem is that they do a very good job of attracting young, stupid people - those who want a welfare, safety net. Then you get all the young people who have parents that are rabidly anti-communist - again, they'll vote PiS because they'll be brainwashed into believing it.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that PiS is solely an old person's party - it would be more accurate to say that it's the party of the badly educated.
A J 4 | 1,088
6 Nov 2010 #16
The problem is that they do a very good job of attracting young, stupid people - those who want a welfare, safety net.

I'm not opposed to social security and safety, but it shouldn't be abused by healthy people who are able to work.

Then you get all the young people who have parents that are rabidly anti-communist

I think that's pretty much understandable if you keep in mind what they've been through.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that PiS is solely an old person's party - it would be more accurate to say that it's the party of the badly educated.

You're right, that's probably because of my background. I think we tend to associate anti-gay sentiments with people who often have strong traditional Christian values, which we automatically associate with old people. (Just how it is here.) But still, I think the younger generation will break with the more traditional vieuws sooner or later, especially when they find out they can make something of themselves.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
6 Nov 2010 #17
it would be more accurate to say that it's the party of the badly educated.

politically badly educated to be precise, since some or even many have a fairly good formal education. The scary thing is that for some strange reason those people get involved with PIS as if this party had any rational way. PIS was always a bunch of lunatics for me anyways,or rather people out of touch with reality.
OP sobieski 107 | 2,128
6 Nov 2010 #18
PIS these days has one - very boring and very worn-out - theme. Smolensk. Nobody in Poland A cares one little bit about this.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629
6 Nov 2010 #19
Nobody in Poland A cares one little bit about this.

Really?

I dunno...if my government had been killed just a few months back it would surely still of huge interest to me!
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Nov 2010 #20
How'd they do that?

Borrow money and spend It on higher wages for teachers, hire more people in administration etc. In short words make debt and spend It on broadly understood consumption. The whole "green island" nonsense... well, check the data, growth in Poland recently has been fueled mostly by consumption - government borrow the money, give It to people, they spend It making the economy going on and PO says "look how great we are, people are getting more money, we had growth as the only country in EU", yeah but that's the way of Latin American populists, It's a matter of time when economy collaps with such policy applied. It's like taking steroids and saying "look how great my body is" when in fact It is being ruined. What's worst, It will be very difficult to stop this madness now, If teachers got the highest ever rises of wages during the crisis then It will be extremely difficult to cut them after the crisis is over.

PiS wanted to spend their way out of the crisis, PO didn't.

Nonsense. It's a lie spread by PO propagandists. Both Lech and PiS were talking about It in late 2008, when the crisis was spreading world wide but Rostowski (the guy who had the best info about real situation of public finances) was literally screaming that budget is in excellent conditions (until he couldn't hide the truth anymore) and what we can expect is at worst some mild and short slowdown... so they said, ok let's spend some more money on public investment (i.e. a building of court in town x was planned to be renovated in 2 years, let's do it now) to stimulate the economy and avoid that short slowdown -> one can agree with that approach or not but It surely is included in the area of mainstream theory of economy. When the truth came out about the financial situation of Poland, they never again proposed such things, instead they have heavily criticized the government for too high deficit since then.

Anyway, the cuts will come, and they'll affect many of the PiS supporters. No bad thing.

No, the rises of taxes are coming. We got to the point, when PO people start blaming Kaczynski for the huge deficit because he... lowered the taxes. What's more, these fools are drilling for money everywhere. Polish energy sector badly need huge investments - the cost is estimated at around 100 billion... what's government do ? Take away the money from this sector into the budget. We already have one of the highest electricity prices in EU and If that 100 billion will have to be paid by electricity consumers, not only households but also business will suffer huge loses. These fools make Hugo Chavez look like a follower of Adam Smith.

Who said anything about Lech?

You say Jaro wasn't arrested because of the father's protection... so why didn't he protect Lech too ? I think even majority of these "intelectually superior" PO voters would notice a lack of logic (to put it mildly) in this reasoning.
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010 #21
we had growth as the only country in EU

That was through massive devaluation of the Zloty, or?

Borrow money and spend It on higher wages for teachers, hire more people in administration etc.

That didn't happen. €300b makes for nearly €7500 per man woman and child, on top of the nearly €2k per year per capita from the EU...

How did they borrow that money? Who did they borrow that money from? I'm intrigued. I know that Poland has purchased about $50b in US debt over the last couple of years, they've also purchased German and UK debt. I hadn't heard about €300b of debt sales out of Poland though. Would really like some info on that if you have the time.
grubas 12 | 1,391
6 Nov 2010 #22
I know that Poland has purchased about $50b in US debt over the last

Really stupid if you ask me.Poland should be borrowing USD from US.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
6 Nov 2010 #23
PiS are destroying themselves. PO doesn't have to do anything to win, just wait.
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010 #24
Really stupid if you ask me.Poland should be borrowing USD from US.

Yea, that's been a stupid move across multiple Polish governments...
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
6 Nov 2010 #25
That was through massive devaluation of the Zloty, or?

That too, also because Polish economy is diversified (for example in Czech Republic or Slovakia motorisation industry is proportionally very large and It was seriously affected by the crisis) banks were healthy and foreign trade is not that big compared to the size of the whole economy but the main reason -> growth was mainly driven (and unfortunately still is) not by investments or export but by consumption, largly financed by the government for borrowed money.

I know that Poland has purchased about $50b in US debt over the last couple of years, they've also purchased German and UK debt.

I don't think so.

BTW almost 300 blillion in PLN.

BTW 2.

nearly €2k per year per capita from the EU...

So almost €80 billion a year from EU ? Holy sh*t ! Soon I will hear that without EU we wouldn't have air to breath.
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010 #26
So almost €80 billion a year from EU ? Holy sh*t ! Soon I will hear that without EU we wouldn't have air to breath.

You're right, that was for a 5 year budget! My mistake.

Ah, 300b zl. Who was that borrowed from, and in what form? Curious.
landora - | 199
7 Nov 2010 #27
You say Jaro wasn't arrested because of the father's protection... so why didn't he protect Lech too ? I think even majority of these "intelectually superior" PO voters would notice a lack of logic (to put it mildly) in this reasoning.

Too tired to reply to the rest, but -

Lech was involved, but Jarek almost certainly wasn't. He's already been told that he wasn't there, and he seems hell bent on trying to convince people that he was.

I don't actually think daddy protected him, because there was nothing for him to protect - Jarek was a coward that only entered politics after the Russians had gone.
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Nov 2010 #28
A fair assessment. Those brothers will be remembered not for any opposition to the PRL, but for saying "teraz kurwa my" (now it's our f**king turn) in relation to corruption, the "spieprzaj dziadu" (f*ck off, you old codger) incident, and forming a coalition government with an openly racist far-right party whose youth wing have flags and uniforms. The hypocrisy of the publicly homophobic Jaroslaw K's personal life (as outed on TV by Lech Walesa) is a scandal yet to come.

go where they belong - down the toilet

Which is where the people of Poland sent them at the last election, before they'd even completed one term of office.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
7 Nov 2010 #29
I wouldn't be surprised if the scandal comes just as they want to get rid of him - it's becoming more and more obvious that he's finished as a politician. The latest polls are showing only 23% support - that's a disaster. My feeling is that both factions in PiS are just biding their time, waiting until Kaczynski has well and truly led the party to disaster before forcing his resignation.

One thing that always made me laugh - Kaczynski's supporters always made a big fuss about the Round Table, but Lech Kaczynski was part of it!
PolishTraitor - | 20
7 Nov 2010 #30
If teachers got the highest ever rises of wages during the crisis then It will be extremely difficult to cut them after the crisis is over.

That would be a superb point, were it not for one tiny little detail. My girlfriend is a teacher and she'll be quite happy to show you her tax returns for the last couple of years: those returns show that teachers did not get a huge raise in their wages! The small increase came almost exclusively from participation in EU funded projects.


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