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How could PiS better spend billions instead of 500+ ?


Alien 13 | 3,053
20 May 2023 #211
going to cost a dozen billion zlotys.

Not necessarily, because no one else but the Polish state can buy these motorways, which means that the state is able to dictate the price. I've already done this from my own experience. I assure you the state always wins in the end.
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #212
this is still a democratic country and communist methods don`t work here

Nationalisation with compensation is perfectly legal and within a remit of a sovereign nation state. Besides in the west Public-Private Partnerships (PPP) with monopoly assets end with the asset returning to public hands at the end of the contract. I'm sure Jan Kulczyk (is he even dead?) bribed Kwasniewski with a typical FU to Poland post-communist arrangement, but the government has a lot of cards to play in terms of making the autostradas free, like in Germany,
Alien 13 | 3,053
20 May 2023 #213
Jan Kulczyk (is he even dead?

Yes, he is.
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #214
What's the 'lol' for? Don't be rude.

I can see that you deserved those "lols" in my comment.

That's the whole damn point of Child Benefit.

Is it? If that's the case then that's simply retarded.

Sorry, but there are more important things than feelings of some people who may or may not feel "stigmatised" in some small town. Somehow everyone isn't getting the social benefits that only poor families are entitled to and noone is complaining about those poor families getting "stigmatised" because of this.

Sad that you 'lol' about tried and tested ways to reduce child poverty.

Don't turn into a demagogic a$$hole again. I don't "lol" about "tried and tested ways to reduce child poverty". I'm all for getting kids out of poverty. That's why I think that if this "500+" or "800+" programme exists then it should be at least based on income, so those families who actually really need help from the state would be getting it and not just everyone who has kids.

Why?

Because I don't think it's the state's job to sponsor some families holidays abroad or the newest smartphone or mom's manicure and her visits to the hairstylist, etc.

There are more important needs in Poland that aren't being met and which are actually the government's job to take care of.

I care more about whether there's enough space and doctors and nurses on child psychiatric wards for the kids who are trying to kill themselves than whether amiga500's relatives in Poland can afford holidays abroad. I consider stuff like holidays abroad to be a luxury and not a basic necessity that has to be provided by the state. State is supposed to provide health service, police protection, etc. on a good enough level, but our state isn't doing that. Allegedly because "there's not enough money", according to the government.

So, if "there's not enough money" for such basic needs like health service, the police, people who really need state's help (like people taking care of disabled family members 24/7), etc. then how is it possible that there's enough money for well-to-do families with kids? It's "possible" because PiS doesn't really care about people and solving Poland's biggest and long-term problems. They care more about keeping power and that "500+"/"800+" is supposed to buy them votes. It's either that or they're total and very short-sighted morons deprived of logical thinking and empathy.

Do you understand better now what's my beef with that "500+/800+"?
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #215
how is it possible that there's enough money for well-to-do families with kids?

Define well-to-do families. Majority of people are making <10k zloty a month. I would wager the amount spent on 500+ on rich families that opt in every year to receive a couple of groszy in their estimation is quite small, and certainly not enough to magically fix the problems you list here.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #216
my beef with that "500+/800+"

Think of it this way - the more money in the hands of people, the less money in the hands of Suski, Sasin or Czarnek. :) Of course, we still have Polish złoty, so the retards can print it at will and that's the problem. Poland should switch to Euro (the currency that PiS geniuses can't print) and then be as generous with social transfers as possible.

As I said - always better to give money to people (who will spend it inside the economy anyway - on food, clothes and services) than leave it with the government geniuses to waste or steal.
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #217
always better to give money to people (who will spend it inside the economy anyway - on food, clothes and services)

And that's what 500+ does! It has massively increased consumer spending and thus GDP. Jeez when did you become so dumb? You sounded a lot smarter a few years ago, seems that evangelical church has rotted your brain, as for joining the euro, lolzo.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #218
@amiga500

Read my post again, village idiot. I support 500+ and I mentioned it on many occasions. Not everything PiS does is stupid.
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #219
@amiga500, if 500+ was able to "magically" allow your relatives in Poland to afford holidays abroad then I'm sure it would also "magically" allow to create some spots for suicidal kids in child psychiatric wards. That would be enough for me. Even if that meant just a few more lives of children saved!

I would wager

I don't care about your guesses and wishful thinking. I'd like to know statistics.

Define well-to-do families.

I don't think only "well-to-do" (middle class, let us say) families shouldn't be getting it. If people are spending those money for stuff like holidays abroad that means they don't need those money. Because there are people and public services who need those money much more than them.

than leave it with the government geniuses to waste or steal.

That's the point though - I don't want them to waste and steal the public money! Obviously, there would more money if the bastards weren't stealing them and they're wasting them also in other ways, not just by giving away 500+/800+ ;(
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #220
If people are spending those money for stuff like holidays abroad that means they don't need those money.

How much do you think it costs to take a family of 4-5 on a holiday abroad, and how much is 500+ again?

I'd like to know statistics.

You're the one screaming like a banshee that if we get rid of 500+ for middle class families, or if we get rid of 500+ for people who have an audacity to try and live as normal human beings ie have a holiday then suddenly the child psychiatric wards will become a place of disneyland. so how about you back up your insane opinions with some stats?
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #221
@Paulina

500+ has significantly decreased the level of poverty (especially among children). It's a good social benefit - fair and commonsensical.
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #222
allow to create some spots for suicidal kids in child psychiatric wards. That would be enough for me.

This isn't like adding spots in your diary for your high-end escort business, the psychiatric wards are full, so one would have to build new hospitals, train new doctors and nurses etc, a decades long investment involving far more money than your pointless and punitive solution to 500+ would achieve.

Funny not once in the last few years have you admitted the miraculous decreases in child poverty (thus saving lives!) thanks to 500+. just whine and complain about people taking holidays. lol
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #223
so how about you back up your insane opinions

"Insane"? Are you a complete idiot? So what's so "insane" about asking why there's money every freaking year for 500+/800+, but there's no money for creating more spots on child psychiatric wards?? Those are logical questions, not "insane" ones. First of all, what is more important for you for the government to do - to sponsor holidays abroad for families or creating more spots for kids in child psychiatric wards?

with some stats?

Until 2021 there's been 156 billion PLN spent on 500+:

bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Na-program-Rodzina-500-wydano-do-tej-pory-ponad-156-mld-zl-8166612.html

According to the government 500+ costs us 40 billion PLN a year. 800+ will cost Poland 64 billion PLN a year. Polish budget in 2023 is 604,5 billion PLN. If 800+ started this year it would cost us over 10% of Poland's budget:

energetyka24.com/atom/analizy-i-komentarze/za-roczne-wydatki-na-program-800-mozna-w-calosci-sfinansowac-elektrownie-jadrowa-komentarz

The money spent for 800+ for just 1,5 year would be enough to build a nuclear power plant in Poland.

So, I'm thinking, you know, that even part of that money would be enough to improve the situation on child psychiatric wards. I don't know if those money would be enough to turn them into "Disneyland", but I think it would be enough to at least stop them from being "human zoo" (as described by people who still work there) :(

­čśö

500+ has significantly decreased the level of poverty (especially among children).

Did you miss that part where I wrote that I think 500+/800+ should be based on income?
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #224
that I think 500+/800+ should be based on income?

So tell us at what level of income should it be cut off? both for single mothers and two parents. As I said before i'm broadly in favour of means testing, but it's all dependent on the amount, and
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #225
So tell us at what level of income should it be cut off?

Why would I tell you that? I don't know - I'm not an economist, a social worker or an expert on child poverty in Poland. Experts in the field should deliberate on this issue and help the government make the right decision.

Also, I personally think that if those money are supposed to help kids get out of poverty and improve their situation then it would probably be a good idea if there was some kind of control over what those money are being spent on by the parents. I remember reading a comment under an article about 500+ getting increased to 800+ by a teacher who wrote that he has kids in his school who still come hungry (and so he buys food for them) to classes despite their families getting 500+ because for their mommy it's more important to pay to get her hair and nails done than to feed her kids. Sorry, but stuff like this pisses me off.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #226
500+/800+ should be based on income?

:D LOL!

OK... let's assume that the income treshold for 500+ is 3000pln per family member (just an example for the sake of argument). Do you really think that any Janusz, whose income would be 3100, 3200 or even 4000 p/fm would sit idly and watch his somsiad - whose income is 2999 p/fm - receive "free government money" for his children while his bombelki are deprived of such help? Ha ha ha ha... are you sure you're from Poland? :D

The next think that would happen is that all the Janusze earning even twice the treshold would be in their bosses' offices the next day negotiating the official pay cut big enough to drop below the treshold (of course they would receive the rest in cash "pod stołem"). Bosses would be more than happy, because it would mean lower ZUS, health insurance and pension payments - so while the employee would be getting the same wages (plus the child benefit), the employer would save a lot of money too. The result of that would be that magically 90% of workforce would land below the treshold and the tax income would drop drastically as well as health-care money and pension savings - a complete and utter disaster in the long run. Brilliant plan, Paulina. Really brilliant.

Some people really need that money for their daily expenses, some may go for a holiday or pay with it for a private kindergarten for example etc. but in every case the money is certainly not enough for all the cost of supporting a child - it is merely some help from the state to those who choose to have children in these difficult times and most civilised countries provide such benefits; native children are a rare and valuable little things in Europe these days, when low birth rates mean either dying out of European countries or the necessity of replacing native populations with third world immigrants.

As I said, Kindergeld, as our German friends and neighbours call it, is the best and most commonsensical social benefit ever invented.
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #227
Brilliant plan, Paulina. Really brilliant.

Sorry, Kania, but that's bullsh1t. There's an income threshold for getting social help from the state for poor families in Poland, so why shouldn't there be one in case of 500+/800+?

native children are a rare and valuable little things in Europe these days, when low birth rates

But 500+ doesn't increase the birth rate in Poland.

some may go for a holiday or pay with it for a private kindergarten for example etc. but in every case the money is certainly not enough for all the cost of supporting a child

That's a waste of public money then that could be spent on more important things in Poland. Why is it so hard to understand? I don't get it... Especially that it is a huge amount of money every year and it's going to be even more o_O You absolutely don't care about the issues I mentioned in my previous comments - like that serious crisis in child psychiatric care, for example? Sorry, but what is wrong with you??

Kania... What about you? I remember that you earn a lot and you have kids. Do you take 500+?
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #228
... and it would be exactly the same for every other treshold. If the threshold is 2000pln - would it be fair for people at 2000pln to receive 500/800+, and those who have 2001pln not receiving it? That's why basing child benefits on income is such a raging nonsense.

Poor (really poor) families get a lot of other help and benefits: unemployment benefits, ┼Ťwiadczenia rodzinne, opieku┼äcze, piel─Ögnacyjne, dop┼éaty do czynszu, ulgi w op┼éatach, lokale socjalne, a lot of lonely mothers receive alimenty for their children from Fundusz Alimentacyjny etc. etc and most of them are based on income.

500+ is not such benefit - it is for every single child of everybody who has children these days (a lot of people choose not too, most often than not out of pure laziness and selfishness) and it is needed, if only to show how important it is for the survival of any country to support parenthood.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #229
You absolutely don't care about the issues I mentioned in my previous comments

Erm... I am simply not discussing other things but 500+ at the moment. Much more money - that could be spent of children healthcare for example - is wasted in other areas than child benefit funds (95% of which goes right back to the economy (goods and services purchased locally in Poland).

Kania... What about you? I remember that you earn a lot and you have kids. Do you take 500+?

Yes, I am quite comfortable financially and yes, I take 500+. I use the money to pay for my daughter's private school and my son's private kindergarten (we were refused the place in a state-run one, repeatedly). The 1000pln/month I receive covers about 35% of the cost. My daughter goes to highschool next year, so 500+ will almost cover my sons kindergarten cost (which, I suppose, is fair as the state is totally inept in this regard and cannot provide enough places in state kindergartens).
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #230
... and it would be exactly the same for every other treshold.

Read my comment above yours.

Poor (really poor) families get a lot of other help and benefits:

Exactly. So what is the point of 500+?

it is needed, if only to show how important it is for the survival of any country to support parenthood.

Well, this "show of importance of parenthood" clearly didn't work, because as I wrote already it didn't increase birth rate and it just keeps falling.

Women are saying what would encourage them to give birth - more nurseries and kindergartens, better care at the hospital during pregnancy and while giving birth, making the mother's life and health a priority before and during child birth, etc.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #231
it didn't increase birth rate

Of course it did. It was 1.29 children per mother just before introducing 500+, now it's 1.47...

it just keeps falling.

Wrong again. Recently there has been an increase every year...

1

macrotrends.net/countries/POL/poland/fertility-rate

... not a huge one but still. Without the child benefit money and rising costs of living - thousands of people - especially those with very low and low wages, would never have decided to have children, and we would be back into 1.2 area (or even lower) again.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #232
...another - incredibly important - reason for the existence of 500+ is to make all the lazy and selfish bezdzietne pasożyty społeczne (I mean not those who can't have children but those who don't want to) foam at the mouth while they spit at the benefit. Merely observing their helpless rage is well worth the 40 billion pln/year. :)
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #233
Yes, I am quite comfortable financially and yes, I take 500+.

I knew it. No wonder you're against an income treshold lol What a selfish a-hole.

I use the money to pay for my daughter's private school and my son's private kindergarten (we were refused the place in a state-run one, repeatedly).

O wow... Well, clearly, your family needs that money to get your kids out of poverty lol *facepalm*
As far as I remember you wrote that your wife works part-time not because she has to (because you earn a lot), but because she feels like working. That means she could stay with your kid at home and you don't really need a kindergarten. I'm not even mentioning that private school for your daughter...

So, basically, all the taxpayers are sponsoring a private school and a private kindergarten for your kids, while suicidal kids don't get the right treatment from the public health service and the police has to get indebted to buy gasoline for their cars because there's not enough... money... in the budget... for such "unimportant" stuff... Wow...

Much more money - that could be spent of children healthcare for example - is wasted in other areas than child benefit funds

But this thread is about 500+, not "other areas" and it's a huge amount of money from the country's budget, so it shouldn't and won't be ignored, sorry.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #234
What a selfish a-hole.

Hey, you can have two children as well - you will then receive exactly the same amount of money for them as I do. Simple as that. :)

That means she could stay with your kid at home

Yes, but she likes her job and I want to keep her happy. You know what they say - "happy wife, happy life". :D

all the taxpayers are sponsoring a private school and a private kindergarten for your kids

No, they are sponsoring 35% of it. Or - if it makes you feel better - they are sponsoring 90% of my son's kindergarten because the state is inept and cannot provide enough places in state-run kindergartens.

In any case, the income threshold for most of the benefits I mentioned (rodzinne, opiekuńcze, pielęgnacyjne etc.) very often doesn't really apply the way it would with 500+ because they go to unemployed people, so the level of offical-income fraud (that I mentioned in my first post) is not that high. With 500+ you can go back to my post #226 and read what exactly would happen.
amiga500 3 | 1,302
20 May 2023 #235
That means she could stay with your kid at home and you don't really need a kindergarten.

You really need to stop poking your nose into other people's family life and telling them what to do. You are like the bitter old hag that jon referenced earlier, or the priests wife 200 years that makes sure all morals are strictly followed by the congregation, by prying into and controlling every aspect of their lives. Instead of 'it's a sin against god and you will go to hell' it's 'children in psych wards are commiting suicide because of your behaviour!'
johnny reb 41 | 8,017
20 May 2023 #236
ou really need to stop poking your nose into other people's life and telling them what to do.

Who ? Paulina !
Where is a better place to spend the countries money, on it's children or on it's old people ?
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #237
Of course it did.

At the beginning, as I already wrote earlier, but not in the long run.

Wrong again. Recently there has been an increase every year...

Not according to this Polish fact-checking site:

demagog.org.pl/wypowiedzi/wspolczynnik-dzietnosci-a-500-analizujemy-dane-z-ostatnich-lat/

According to official data from GUS birth rate has been falling since 2018:

birthrate

In 2021 it was lower than in 2008.

You really need to stop poking your nose into other people's family life

Sorry, amiga500, but this is about taxpayers money, so we all have the right to know what's happening with those money. And I'd rather see them being spent on more important and urgent stuff than a private school for Kania's daughter, ffs.
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #238
more important and urgent stuff than a private school for Kania's daughter, ffs.

:D

I promise that starting from the next month I won't even pay one single penny of it for my daughter's school. It will all go for my son's kindergarten (it won't be enough, but will cover most of it) and I'm sure you agree that in a situation when the state cannot provide enough places for all the children, they should at least partly reimburse the costs that parents have to face.

OK, Paulina - you like to poke your nose into other people's private lives, so now it's my turn: how much money do you give to charity each month? Domy dziecka, children's hospices, Unicef food aid for Africa or anything really. What is the percentage of your net income that you give to charity? Such a moral, upright and honest person like you surely has nothing to be ashamed of in this matter.

Let's hear it.
Paulina 14 | 3,355
20 May 2023 #239
they should at least partly reimburse the costs that parents have to face.

In case of parents who earn as much as you do - no, I don't think so. And that's because there's no money for more important stuff.

how much money do you give to charity each month

I don't know, I don't count. I send money through SMS to various causes, for example for that JW AGAT soldier's rehabilitation, for UNICEF, Ukrainian refugees, obviously, for Doctors Without Borders, etc. It eats up my phone bill, but I don't know how much each month. I don't earn as much as you do, however, and it's not about charity. It's about the government doing it's job by spending public money on the most urgent things that aren't being taken care of.

opt-in and you have to apply every year, so now we're back to the ethical and personal responsibility of rich families taking government child support when they don't need it

And that's my point with Kania (and others like him). He doesn't really need it. Child psychiatric wards need it. People taking care of disabled family members 24/7 need those money more than he does... *sigh* What is wrong with you people? :(
GefreiterKania 30 | 1,217
20 May 2023 #240
I send money through SMS to various causes

That's quite charming but I meant serious charity. I asked about the percentage of your net income but obviously I don't want a 100% precise number. Just give us your rough estimate.

In case of parents who earn as much as you do

The only reason why you think I earn a lot is because, apparently, you don't meet people who really do. I meet them, on a daily basis. And guess what - they take 500+ too. Not because they are "immoral", "unethical" or any other bullsh*t like that, but because it makes sense - they can spend the money in a much more sensible and efficient way than the government. And they give generously to charity as well, both in absolute amounts and percentage-wise.

If you really think that PiS (or any other government) would use the 40 billion to magically heal the children psychiatric care system or increase the ┼Ťwiadczenia opieku┼äcze for disabled people then you are deluding yourself. It would all just disappear in countless other sp├│┼éki skarbu pa┼ästwa, fundacje, fraud state-funded enterprises or - in the best case scenario - it would end in South Korea or USA, as payment for weapons (but those money would be found elsewhere anyway).

Also, you repeatedly ignore the fact that 500+, no matter if it goes to poor or rich people, goes right back into the economy: food (farmers, food industry), clothes, schools and kindergartens (tens of thousands of workplaces all over Poland), services of all kinds (millions of workplaces), so the entire country benefits because of that.

You really are becoming a bitter, nagging hag, more and more each year. Find a decent man, marry him, let him impregnate you, give birth to children and take all the benefits you can to your heart's content. Maybe it will help you. Maybe. But don't use "children psychiatric wards" or disabled children as a comfortable excuse for your bitterness and frustration. It's pathetic.

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