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Petru wants Tadeusz Mazowiecki monument in Warsaw


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #1
Ryszard Petru, leader of the fringe Nowoczesna party, has proposed a campaign to build a monument to Tadeusz Mazoweicki, billed as "Poland's first non-communist post-war prime minister." According to Petru, such a project should receive general support and help de-polarise Polish society.

Apparently, Petru doens't know his history, because Mazowiecki is also remembered as a communist collaborator, and in the Stalin era no less.

Mazowiecki offered his support to the Communist authorities, expressed in press articles and other publications. In 1952, he published a pamphlet titled The enemy remains the same (Wróg pozostał ten sam, co-authored with Zygmunt Przetakiewicz, then editor-in-chief of WTK*) imputing an alliance between Polish anti-communist resistance movement and Nazi war criminals. In a press article published in WTK in 1953, Mazowiecki fiercely condemned Czesław Kaczmarek, then Bishop of Kielce. Kaczmarek, groundlessly accused by the Communists of being an American and Vatican spy, was later sentenced to 12 years in prison.

during the Vatican II period he and another collaborator Wielowiejski were sent to Rome to snitch on Cardinal Wyszyński. Hardly someone that will bring Poles together!

*Wrocławski Tygodnik Katolików (Wrocław Catholic Weekly) - a collaborationist journal of "progressive" (ie pro-regime) Catholics.
cms 9 | 1,271
15 Sep 2016 #2
Good god, will it ever end ? am I only the only Polish taxpayer who wishes both sides would stop arguing about monuments and digging up graves and just to normal stuff - build roads, buy some new equipment for schools, some new police cars
Atch 17 | 3,265
15 Sep 2016 #3
CMS am I right in thinking you're Irish?? I seem to have a vague idea that you are. Anyway, whilst I agree with you, you have to remember that Poland has only been 'independent' for less than thirty years. Now imagine the Ireland of 1950 where people could still be divided into supporters of Dev or Michael Collins, and there you go, with the difference that Poles have much longer memories than the Irish. They hold grudges, they believe in punishment, they are more confrontational as people. It's not just Communism either. Almost every day, I see an image of Hitler either on a magazine cover or on a Polish website. They find it very hard not to dwell on the past. The war ended seventy years ago but it's still looms very large. Look at WWI and see how the nations involved moved on within the seventy years after it. By 1988, WWI was part of history, the fallen not forgotten but the events very distant. But here, I feel WWII is still very strong in the nation's consciousness.
Crow 139 | 8,281
15 Sep 2016 #4
Monument to Tadeusz?

Well, i don`t know.... isn`t he Slavic traitor?

Much better to erect monument to Gavrilo Princip. He did much more for Poland.
Harry
15 Sep 2016 #5
Mazowiecki is also remembered as a communist collaborator

Did he volunteer to prosecute dissidents like Chairman Kaczynski did?
Crow 139 | 8,281
15 Sep 2016 #6
To put cross on myself, i now have full information about Mazowiecki. Man was proven moral heretic, sadist, friend of fiend and idiot above idiots. Don`t erect monument to moron, Poles. Beware. Avoid that sh**.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #7
dwell on the past.

True and understandable in a country that lost 6 mln people to the Nazis and another 2 million to the Soviets including missing and unaccoutned for (probably in death pits yet to be discovered).
Atch 17 | 3,265
15 Sep 2016 #8
Yes indeed. But the best way to right the wrongs of the past and do justice to the dead and the heroes of past struggles, is to spend one's time, energy and money not in arguments or monuments, but in putting aside differences to make present day Poland a better place for Poles to live. Ok, I'm in the middle of making a korma so I must go - oh and before you start on about turmeric, another of your obesssions, I'm not using any in the sauce - and I've taken your advice of putting saffron in the rice, so you see now, I do listen to you sometimes.
mafketis 24 | 8,712
15 Sep 2016 #9
turmeric, another of your obesssions

What's wrong with turmeric (kukurma in common Polish usage)? I find someone obsessed with it to be very, very sad.

I've taken your advice of putting saffron in the rice

Missus Big Spender! Good day at the races???????

spend one's time, energy and money not in arguments or monuments, but in putting aside differences to make present day Poland a better place for Poles to live

Very true and anathema to about 60% of Polish people (probably more) who quite enjoy arguing and holding grudges and never letting anything go (the more it should be let go the more tenaciously some hold on to it).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #10
What's wrong with turmeric

Nothing wrong per se in fact it has great health-promoting properties, but just ain't my cuppa. Whether in sour-tasting, yucky-yellow standard American mustard and curry dishes or now added to poultry seasoning also in Poland -- it turns me off. The Mrs sometimes gets a rotisserie-roasted chicken and I can always tell whether they used commercial poultry season on it.Do you like every imaginable type of taste and food?

I'll eat most any food of different cultures, duck-blood soup, bfrawn, blood sausage, raw fish, tripe, even tried chocoalate-covered ants (a crunchy sweet!), so I'm hardly the finnicky eater or the meat & potatoes type of person.
Atch 17 | 3,265
15 Sep 2016 #11
What's wrong with turmeric

Nothing in my opinion but Polly has the idea that Indian food is loaded with it and refers to curries as 'turmeric tainted'. Many Indian recipes don't use turmeric at all.

Missus Big Spender!

Tylko cztery złotych kochanie! Missus Clever Shopper! And I'll only need to use a tiny bit of it. Relative to the amount in weight though, it is ludicrously expensive.

Now I'd better say something about Poland or this will be whisked in to off-topic before you can say 'conspiracy theory'.

never letting anything go

Yes, that is a real problem. People still get quite worked up about events from centuries ago, let alone the war and Communism. There's no doubt that it's a terrible hindrance to the development of Poland, this pre-occupation with nursing past wrongs. I know it probably sounds trivial in comparison to the devastation of Warsaw, but look at Coventry in the UK. It was very badly hit in the blitz, most of their historic city centre destroyed, three quarters of their industrial plant, and their beautiful historic Cathedral razed to the ground. It might pale in comparison to Warsaw, but not to the people of Coventry at that time. The city basically had to be rebuilt and it's not a thing of beauty any longer but the locals have moved on from what happened.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #12
volunteer to prosecute dissidents

Still no proof other than someone working or in training somewhere. To back up your blanket accusation you need a reliable source saying something like: Kaczyński was told when he applied that the job may involve prosecuting anti-communist dissidents and other enemies of the regime and he told his employer: "No problem!"

The bottom line is that no-one suffered at Kaczyński's hands, whilst Mazowiecki was serving a regime that constantly harassed Catholics and clergy, denied passports for bishops to travel to Rome and had a whole barrel of nasty tricks up their sleeve.
smurf 39 | 1,981
15 Sep 2016 #13
but look at Coventry in the UK

Dresden

The allies levelled the place purely to kill civilians, a war crime in truth
Nagasaki & Hiroshima too, the fact that America was let off with that scot-free just goes to show how cowardly we are as a species

The bottom line is that no-one suffered at Kaczyński's hands

Of course not, having a dictator puppet master is great for the country

#fail
Crow 139 | 8,281
15 Sep 2016 #14
The allies levelled the place purely to kill civilians, a war crime in truth

Very true. It was actually genocide on local native Slavs, Sorbs. One more genocide in long history of USA genocides. One more genocide with which USA escaped, for now at least.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #15
which USA escaped, for now at least.

When your beloved slavs come to ruke the world, are you saying you will engineer another Nuremberg to put Americans on trial?
Crow 139 | 8,281
15 Sep 2016 #16
USA is Nazi police state. It would dissolve from within, from its own heretical evil.
cms 9 | 1,271
15 Sep 2016 #17
Thanks Atch :) no I'm not Irish though I do like the Whiskey ! Polish emigre parents, born in the UK, teens and college in the US and in Poland/CEE for the last 20 - if someone asks where I'm from I normally say British. But I love all 3 countries very much and if Donald continues his surge then they will sadly all have been taken over by shallow populists by the end of the year :(

I understand the analogy and I think in the UK then splits that started under Thatcher continue today, the Clinton wars may continue for another 15-20 years too. Most people just want a government that helps them lead a happy and dignified life.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #18
USA is Nazi police state

Ever been there? Don't believe the anti-American propaganda by jealous wannabes regretting they were not born in "the home of the brave and the land of the free".

Too bad Truman didn't give Gen. Patton the go-ahead to march on the USSR and roll the Rooskeis back to the Urals where they belong. The Polish occupation zoen of Germany should have stretched all the way to the Elbe.
mafketis 24 | 8,712
15 Sep 2016 #19
Tylko cztery złotych kochanie! Missus Clever Shopper! And I'll only need to use a tiny bit of it. Relative to the amount in weight though, it is ludicrously expensive.

For some reason it's ridiculously cheap in Bulgaria. А 15 gram bag costs something like 10 zloties.....

Like turmeric I mostly use it in the preparation of Spanish rice. I used to love some curries but in recent years.... meh. But I love me some yellow rice. Too bad black beans aren't easy to find as black beans and yellow rice used to be a big favorite of mine.

the locals have moved on from what happened.

"We do not move on" could be one of the Polish national mottoes.... On the other hand "I'm not interested in that" is another so you often get a weird mix of stubborn apathy.....
Crow 139 | 8,281
15 Sep 2016 #20
All in all, don`t erect monument to maniac Tadeusz.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
15 Sep 2016 #21
maniac Tadeusz

Not a maniac by any means, maybe slightly misguided.
jon357 63 | 15,168
15 Sep 2016 #22
Petru is right, there certainly should be a monument to him as a priority
Jardinero 1 | 407
15 Sep 2016 #23
The problem with Mazowiecki is that he kissed the RC church's arse too much... and allowed religion back in schools.
jon357 63 | 15,168
15 Sep 2016 #24
That is true; it was a time to be resolute about laicism however I suspect that he had limited choices at the time.
Crow 139 | 8,281
16 Sep 2016 #25
The problem with Mazowiecki is that he kissed the RC church's arse too much... and allowed religion back in schools.

i don`t see that as a problem. Not necessarily, at least. Its kind of his own attempt for redemption of his lost soul. Still, that don`t qualify him for the monument. i mean, if you erect monument to one Chopin or to one Kościuszko, to one Maria Skłodowska-Curie or to one Władysław Warneńczyk, etc, etc,.... how could anybody think that is monument to Tadeusz Mazowiecki possible. Its not possible. Tadeusz`s monument would be insult for all who truly deserved monument.

So, no need for humiliation of Poland with that monument.

and who is that Petru after all? Former lover of that imbecile Tadeusz?


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