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Polish people's criticism of European Union


InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Oct 2015 #61
You are da... right! To Poland and consorts! How many jobs lost in the West because companies have moved to cheaper labor countries? In the West, all media are full of examples every day and it's still going on. Companies are not stupid, better for their profits to hire a cheaper Pole, Slovak, Czech, Rumanian, .... rather than a Belgian, French, Dane, German... who demands better salaries and conditions. If anti-EU political parties are so strong (and sometimes even in office) in Western Europe, it is NO coincidence. Developing Eastern Europe IS impoverishing Western Europe and needless to say, most people in Western Europe are against EU.

Unfortunately it is not only in EU is we only consider all those American IT companies settling in Poland and hiring Indians, Pakistanis and the like instead of hiring Americans back home for salaries several times higher.

@Dgy.... ;): you are absolutely right! Only the socalled "elites" are in favor of EU but the "normal people" are almost all totally against EU. In France, for instance, in 2005, 55% of voters rejected the EU's constitution but never mind, Sarkozy got the constitution approved by the (French) Parliament in 2007. In Ireland and in the Netherlands, referenda were cancelled several times because the results did not suit ... EU. It would sound like a joke if not destroying countries and their people...
Dgytgjgjkykhff
9 Oct 2015 #62
In the future I could totally see the EU splitting up into several smaller blocks of "similar" countries or standalone countries who might have only economic relationship between each other. Countries don't need to have a common government (like the EU "parliament") to be good neighbours and have good economic ties (look at Canada and the US).
johnny reb 24 | 4,293
9 Oct 2015 #63
Countries don't need to have a common government (like the EU "parliament") to be good neighbours and have good economic ties (look at Canada and the US).

You mean, the U.S., Canada, Mexico...........all it's close neighbor's.

The problem with the EU is that it's dominated by Germany

Only the socalled "elites" are in favor of EU

Greed and it was working very well until Merkel's greed to import the refugees for a new cheap work force back fired on her.

Back when the U.S. wanted to put sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine deal these greedy "elites" (the EU) wanted no part of it.

A leaked recording of a telephone conversation allegedly between US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland and the US envoy to the Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing who should be in Ukraine's next government has, according to The FT, threatened to fuel east-west tensions over the troubled nation's future. In apparent frustration with the EU - which had failed to join the US in threatening sanctions against Ukraine's leaders if they violently crush the protests -

Remember when in that famous recording the US assistant secretary of state was heard saying, "F*ck the EU".
Finally half heartedly the E.U. joined in the sanctions.
So it's not only the Polish people that criticize the E.U.
The Polish people seem to be the wisest to it is all.
Keep Poland Polish !
23456
9 Oct 2015 #64
@Dgy... (couldn't you choose an easier nickname?;)): 100% agreed

@Johnny: since you don't live in Europe, you don't know about Europeans. In any (not only European) country, there is a huge difference between the socalled "elites" and the normal people. Trust me, most of Western Europeans are against EU. Poles being against EU does not make sense since Poles get the most money from EU funds. Poles should not bite the hand that feeds them. Re Merkel, I have just heard Junker (visiting some refugee camp, I have not paid attention to where but maybe in Italy...) saying that EU countries HAVE to relieve Germany from all those refugees. Last month, Germany sent 600 of them to France. Since Germany has invited them, most refugees should be accommodated and fed by Germany. I personally don't want to leave refugees to their misery but since Merkel has invited them, I don't understand why the other 27 EU countries should be involved. Merkel and more generally Germany have made a huge mistake so it's their problem now... If for instance, I invite some people to my flat, I don't force my neighbor to take them in ;)

It's more than urgent to get the h..ll out of the merkelian kommandantur.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
9 Oct 2015 #65
It's me posting above ;). I was not logged in and could not enter my name...
TheOther 6 | 3,818
9 Oct 2015 #66
I don't understand why the other 27 EU countries should be involved. Merkel and more generally Germany have made a huge mistake so it's their problem now.

How about Merkel saved the sorry ass.es of the other EU countries so that they didn't have to take in any significant number of refugees? If the Germans have to accomodate 1.5 million arrivals a year as it looks now, the country will collapse at some point in time. Should that happen, the rest of Europe can kiss their economies goodbye and prepare themselves for some big time civil unrest.

Some people here seem to believe that 'European Union' means to leech off the system but don't give back in return. Exactly the attitude that will ultimately destroy the union. Where will that leave Poland?
mafketis 23 | 8,543
9 Oct 2015 #67
If the Germans have to accomodate 1.5 million arrivals a year as it looks now, the country will collapse at some point in time.

Once family reunification kicks in it'll be more like 5 million at a minimum. This is not sustainable by any possible human calculation. And yet Western European leaders, Merkel in the forefront are doubling down on the "we don't care who you are, just come!" policy.

This is going to create a huuuuuuge amount of instability in a country next to Poland and should concern people a lot more than it does. In a few years Poland will be faced with a unique(?) situation. A relatively calm eastern border and a wildly unstable western one. Is anyone preparing for the possiblity of needing to close the western border to keep the unrest from spilling over?
TheOther 6 | 3,818
9 Oct 2015 #68
This is going to create a huuuuuuge amount of instability in a country next to Poland and should concern people a lot more than it does.

Absolutely, and it will affect Poland directly because the country's economy will tank once Germany is in deep doodoo. In my opinion, Poland needs to get much more involved in creating a strategy on how to solve the refugee crisis. ASAP, to be exact. This endless debating in Brussels will lead to chaos if it doesn't stop and they get their act together.
Dgytgjgjkykhff
10 Oct 2015 #69
Poland needs to get much more involved in creating a strategy on how to solve the refugee crisis. ASAP, to be exact

Well, Angela Merkel invited these migrants and refugees to Germany in her "come one, come all" speech. Did she consult anyone in Europe? Did she consult Poland? No. Many of the migrants say they have been invited by Germany (yes, invited by Germany specifically, not Poland, not Czech Republic, not Slovakia, etc.). I read the government of the German state of Bavaria can't take it any more because the are so overwhelmed, but Angela refuses to listen. And here you are bashing Poland... as if Poland somehow could influence internal German political decisions or as if Germany will listen to anything Poland will say. Ridiculous. Taking in more migrants by Poland from Germany is hardly a solution when more and more are coming, and their destination is not Poland (I hear, that at least half of the Syrian migrants who were privately sponsored by the that Christian charitable organization in Poland around July have left Poland already for western Europe).

What should happen is for Angela Merkel to make a speech directed to the migrants and refugees that *this year* the limit has been reached and they have to stay in Turkey, in refugee camps or other places; EU should help them there; the outside borders should be strengthened. The situation in Greece has be brought under control with effective border patrols and processing of migrants. I know that some action is already being taken. Frankly I think refugees should be processed from refugee camps, and they shouldn't be required to make the journey-- at least this would be more fair to ALL refugees (not just the ones who are strong enough to take dangerous and expensive journeys on their own).

I just listened to a clip on TokFM. Germany is a bad leader for Europe. They look at issues from their own "internal politics" standpoint, and they try to impose their "solutions" and policies on the rest of Europe (e.g. the EURO crisis or the refugee crisis). Then they manipulate words such as solidarity or other emotionally charged words to get what they want. Merkel's "Wir können das schaffen" sounds ridiculously naive and essentially divorced from reality now.

Correction: the first sentence quoted (in my comment) was from theOther's comment.
Yosemite 2 | 88
10 Oct 2015 #70
If the Germans have to accomodate 1.5 million arrivals a year as it looks now, the country will collapse at some point in time.

1.5 million a year of cheap labour, I'm sure zee Germans can think of ways to further promote their powerhouse economy and remain as one of worlds top exporters with that kind of human resource. At the end of the day theyre not exactly forced to take that number, they could quite simply say no.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
10 Oct 2015 #71
they could quite simply say no

Actually, they can't because they are - just like everybody else - bound to international law. Once a refugee is within the EU (which you cannot prevent on the long run) and claims to be an asylum seeker, you have to grant asylum no matter what. You can try to prove that they are something else, but that is a long process.

remain as one of worlds top exporters with that kind of human resource

If the refugees would be engineers, doctors and stuff, then yes, but from what I've heard the vast majority are uneducated folks that saw camel herding as a career path.

Angela Merkel invited these migrants and refugees to Germany in her "come one, come all" speech.

Very stupid of her, and she or, to be more exact, Germany and Europe will ultimately pay the price.

Did she consult anyone in Europe?

I bet the rest of Europe was more than relieved not to be consulted. You can't be so naive to believe that either Greece or Italy would've been capable to deal with such a large number of refugees. Controlling the outside borders of the EU looks good in theory. They would've been quickly overrun and the refugees would've spread across the continent completely uncontrolled, so Germay's offer was more like a valve releasing pressure. But of course, Germany has to deal with the same crap in Europe that the USA has to deal with on a global scale: damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And here you are bashing Poland

BS. I said "Poland needs to get much more involved in creating a strategy on how to solve the refugee crisis" . How is that bashing? Poland always has the ambition to play in the same league as the big guys. Here's her chance.
Yosemite 2 | 88
10 Oct 2015 #72
Actually, they can't because they are - just like everybody else - bound to international law

International law! who makes the laws? Merkel and the EU can change this if they so wish. It all comes down to fair deals at the end of the day, if millions are flocking to Germany and not many other countries logic dictates that this law can be adjusted.

If the refugees would be engineers, doctors and stuff, then yes, but from what I've heard the vast majority are uneducated folks that saw camel herding as a career path.

Manual labour doesn't require a degree, theres (still at least) millions of jobs for manual labour. The UK managed to put 1,500,000 million poles to work in uneducated, crappy manual labour jobs I'm sure the Germans can do the same and pay them less under some kind of asylum seeker minimum wage.

Lets not be under any illusions here, Germany would not be so welcoming to these immigrants if they weren't benefiting in a financial sense. Germany were recently advertising free engineering degree courses in the UK, free education and guaranteed work placement for three years or something like that, and after that the workers could return to the UK or stay in Germany. They need the labour.
mafketis 23 | 8,543
10 Oct 2015 #73
if millions are flocking to Germany and not many other countries logic dictates that this law can be adjusted.

No. There's no reason Poland should accept thousands of people who are prone to regard most Polish traditions as immoral. How do you assimilate (or integrate) people who despise your food and social practices and deepest ideals? Crazy people think that can be done, but sane people don't.
Yosemite 2 | 88
10 Oct 2015 #74
No. There's no reason Poland should accept thousands of people who are prone to regard most Polish traditions as immoral.

Thats not what i said or implied at all. Refugees will not be that quick to flock to Poland, after all Poland has a huge employment problem as it is.....Germany on the other hand.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
10 Oct 2015 #75
Merkel and the EU can change this if they so wish

They are debating in Brussels until they'll drop dead. Nothing has happened yet that actually deals with the refugee crisis.

Germany would not be so welcoming to these immigrants if they weren't benefiting in a financial sense

For various reasons, the country was barely able to integrate 3 million Turks over the past 50 years. How would they possibly deal with 1.5 million refugees from the Middle East per year over the next 5 years? And I haven't even mentioned that the refugees, once accepted as asylum seekers, will want to bring their extended families as well. There might be a short-term financial benefit for the corporations, but you cannot bring in millions of people from a totally different culture over a short period of time without risking social peace. It shows already. Right-wing parties are on the rise.

Germany were recently advertising free engineering degree courses in the UK, free education and guaranteed work placement

What I said: well educated specialists are needed, not illiterate people from some hellhole in Syria, Afghanistan or Eritrea.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
10 Oct 2015 #76
You are da... right! To Poland and consorts! How many jobs lost in the West because companies have moved to cheaper labor countries? In the West, all media are full of examples every day and it's still going on. Companies are not stupid, better for their profits to hire a cheaper Pole, Slovak, Czech, Rumanian, .... rather than a Belgian, French, Dane, German... who demands better salaries and conditions.

Exactly. So in result Poles and others work their butts off for 300-500 EUR a month, profits go back to the west so hordes of these nasty parasites can sit on their asses and live off the work done by others. Enough of that nonsense.

Now all you "expats" that are going to jump in and say that it isn't so and that Poland is taking x trillions out of EU... So how is it possible ? Some vast Polish conspiracy took over Europe ? Or perhaps all these "calculations" are not complete and the net flow of money goes in the opposite direction ?
TheOther 6 | 3,818
10 Oct 2015 #77
Or perhaps all these "calculations" are not complete and the net flow of money goes in the opposite direction ?

Except for creating the necessary infrastructure, funds from the EU have nothing to do with business investments in Poland. Companies do business for one reason only: profit. If you think that's bad, you're living in the wrong system. ;)
Yosemite 2 | 88
10 Oct 2015 #78
Right-wing parties are on the rise.

ahh thats just media fuelled fear mongering. If the UK featured that with the mass Polish exodus to the UK think what might've happened here. Governments control media don't forget that.

the country was barely able to integrate 3 million Turks over the past 50 years. How would they possibly deal with 1.5 million refugees from the Middle East per year over the next 5 years?

Care to post up some credible links to these statements? 3 million turks over 50 years, so 60,000 a year...thats nothing. and 1.5 million per year from the middle east! Were only seeing this current number based on the war in Syria, who knows how that will play out. The war could end next week. I think you're massively over dramatising.

If the Germans have to accomodate 1.5 million arrivals a year as it looks now, the country will collapse at some point in time. Should that happen, the rest of Europe can kiss their economies goodbye and prepare themselves for some big time civil unrest.

Absolutely, and it will affect Poland directly because the country's economy will tank once Germany is in deep doodoo.

Calm down mate. Do you honestly think that the people who really know aren't at least three steps ahead of you?

What I said: well educated specialists are needed, not illiterate people from some hellhole in Syria, Afghanistan or Eritrea.

and what i said was, they were looking to EDUCATE Brits for free, so why not EDUCATE above mentioned hellhole (your words) humans for less money?

Exactly. So in result Poles and others work their butts off for 300-500 EUR a month, profits go back to the west so hordes of these nasty parasites can sit on their asses and live off the work done by others. Enough of that nonsense.

Thats capitalism Grzeg, welcome to the party, it aint gonna stop mate. Not till theres a revolution anyway....I came to that realisation a while ago. Profit, profit, profit.

Companies do business for one reason only: profit. If you think that's bad, you're living in the wrong system. ;)

We are living within the wrong social system. By a long shot.
Dgytgjgjkykhff
10 Oct 2015 #79
Hey TheOther

I must have misunderstood your comment. I read your comment that we should be grateful to Germany for taking so many migrants. I disagree with that. The way I see it Germany and specifically Merkel is the cause of the way this crisis is unfolding. I'm not against taking in *some* refugees, but it has to be done in a controlled and gradual manner (some of the economic migrants who arrived in Germany have destroyed their identity documents so to prevent being deported). I think it's much harder to deport people (who realistically should not be offered asylum) than to prevent them from entering the country in the first place.

I agree with some of the other comments from some people here. German industry just wants cheap labor. You can't pay high wages to people who can't speak German very well, regardless of how highly qualified they were in Syria or other countries. If German industry wanted people from high unemployment areas of southern Europe, they would have to pay them more. The thing is that pretty much all of the migrants/refugees will require welfare for the many years, and its debatable how much they will contribute to Germany. This is a tremendous finacial cost for the state (German taxpayers). It's also extremely risky socially to allow so many people into a country due to inevitable conflicts.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
10 Oct 2015 #80
thats just media fuelled fear mongering

Unfortunately, it's not. Right wing parties have been on the rise all across the continent for quite some time now. Look at the FPO in Austria which has overwhelmingly won some local elections just recently ( reuters.com/article/2015/09/27/us-austria-election-idUSKCN0RR0ZQ20150927). The AfD in Germany has jumped to about 6% now and elections are another two years away. Plenty of time to grow like PEGIDA. Wilders in the Netherlands, the Golden Dawn in Greece, LePen in France, UKIP in Britain. You need more examples?

Care to post up some credible links to these statements?

You know a little German? There are a million sources out there.

welt.de/politik/deutschland/article7222075/Tuerken-sind-die-Sorgenkinder-der-Integration.html
taz.de/!5168897/
de/regionales/duesseldorf/article116063056/Warum-stagniert-die-Zahl-eingebuergerter-Tuerken.

Do you honestly think that the people who really know aren't at least three steps ahead of you?

I'm not into conspiracy theories, WB...

We are living within the wrong social system.

Ha ha ha. I knew you would say this.
Yosemite 2 | 88
11 Oct 2015 #81
UKIP in Britain

yeah a bunch of ill educated, stuck in their way old farts, or ignorant stupid people. Its the same story the world over.

Ha ha ha. I knew you would say this.

OK man.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
11 Oct 2015 #82
OK man.

Don't take it the wrong way, WB. I just know where you stand politically.

Hey, and I just noticed that my previous post was edited by a mod without leaving a note. What's going on here?

Note: Links unrelated to Poland / Poles / Polish matters may be deactivated by moderators. Posters should refrain from linking to content unrelated to Poland.

Mod, it was not a link you deleted. It was a comment for Dgytgjgjkykhff in which I stated that Germany was already blamed for attracting too many young people from Spain and Portugal by offering them jobs and a free education.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
11 Oct 2015 #83
You know a little German? There are a million sources out there.

And some things the German press seem reluctant to report. I wonder how Polish doctors would react?

I was surprised when I read the comments section.

.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/09/german-turkish-author-warns-europe-importing-islamic-cultural-crisis
TheOther 6 | 3,818
11 Oct 2015 #84
And some things the German press seem reluctant to report.

There are rumors in Germany that the police and the media were told to refrain from reporting certain refugee-related incidents like attacks on the local population, increasing numbers of rapes, fights amongst the refugees, and the like. I can only hope that these rumors are untrue, because otherwise there will be a rude awakening very soon
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
11 Oct 2015 #85
fights amongst the refugees

These are certainly happening, as I've been following it and almost everyone is agreed that it's happening. It seems to be mostly Albanians fighting with people from further afield such as Pakistan and Afghanistan. Quite what any of them are doing in Germany in the first place is beyond me...

Can't say about the other things because it's not so interesting for me personally.

because otherwise there will be a rude awakening very soon

I'm surprised that it hasn't happened already.
Dgytgjgjkykhff
11 Oct 2015 #86
Back to the question of the EU...

I wish Poland was a bit like Britain and be able to tell Brussels or really Berlin to F... Off when necessary. It's too bad that Poland is not more "independent economically" (not sure about the right words). The EU is dominated by Germany too much...

@TheOther, I didn't see the links. It doesn't matter... I think my posts were causing people to go off the main topic. I was so trying NOT to be drawn into the debate here... I lost that battle. Even the obscure nickname didn't help me from posting more...
mafketis 23 | 8,543
11 Oct 2015 #87
Quite what any of them are doing in Germany in the first place is beyond me...

Merkel's Folly stumps even the sharpest minds.

Why the rest of Europe should rush in with support for a decision that was make with no input whatsoever from them is also not clear.

Latest crazy idea.... Surely none of the 'refugees' want to come to Poland but that might make Poland more attractive for .... Germans

I could totally see Germans who are fed up with the Multidiversity agenda thinking that countries further east with a more traditional European lifestyle (like the Visegrad countries including Poland) to be a viable alternative.

I'm not talking big numbers, but Germans who actually spend time in Poland (instead seem to mostly find it pretty comfortable.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Oct 2015 #88
I have just read that Süddeutsche Zeitung wrote that Merkel and EU's commission are considering a "Soli-Zuschlag" in EU in order to help financing migrants. The tax would be on gas or on VAT throughout EU, including of course Poland.

As I have often said, OK to help true war refugees and to help them in a coherent manner but I am against millions of people (most often not controlled) coming from all over the 3rd world. Merkel is completely insane and I hope the Germans are going to get rid of her very soon. According to medias, Germans are not too happy with situation. Who the h... does the woman think she is? A new führer? Enough with das ... Reich!

No, EU canNOT accommodate millions of newcomers and anybody saying the opposite is mentally sick. No country can afford to.

Germany want them so they need to be sent to Germany and I doubt that EU citizens would agree on a "migrant tax".

PS: @Maf; of course no migrant wants to come to Poland (I don't blame them) but as Mama Merkel has decided that all the 27 other countries shall, all the puppet governments will obey. Why do you think Tusk got his job if not because he's Merkel's little chihuahua....
mafketis 23 | 8,543
11 Oct 2015 #89
Mama Merkel has decided that all the 27 other countries shall, all the puppet governments will obey.

Well again (for the nth time) If they're sent to Poland, how are they going to be _kept_ in Poland? Short of barbed wire and border patrols I don't see that happening. Or maybe Merkel's just looking for face saving publicity? Why should any Polish government help her out of her mistakes (especially given Germany's hostile policy towards Poles after 2004?)
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Oct 2015 #90
@Maf: it's not a German-Polish problem but a German-27 EU countries problem. Not only Poland, no country -including Germany -can afford to accommodate millions of newcomers who will need to be spoonfed.

Germany has never been against Poland (it's high time for Poles to stop being paranoid) considering Germany's okS to give Poland billions of Euros and if Tusk got his job, it was only because of Merkel and of his lack of charisma (EU needs obedient little doggies)

As to Poland, since PiS are to come in office in 2 weeks and are against taking in migrants, I suppose that they will cancel EK's deal with Merkel. It makes sense to me but is it legally possible?


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