2011 Netherlands discuss Polish deportation plan

I am ... look at my discussions with warszawski.

The thing I am hammering on is that if people don't know enough about some topic, they should refrain from passing moral judgements. I don't live in Poland (yet), so I will not give a moral judgement about Polish societal issues.

You and warszawski don't have the full picture what is hapening over here, so I suggest you adopt the same policy. Warszawski claimed this "song" was a hit: it wasn't. He claims that OTTO is in the hands of a Dutch national, but he forgets to mention that his wife is the other shareholder and she is Polish, in #23 he claims we have problems with Russians, which we don't. Or with former yugoslaves, which we don't. He was wrong about the terms of our social welfare system, he didn't know which companies were Dutch multinationals, about long term illness figures, he tries to show with a couple of extreme cases that the whole of the Dutch labour market is unfair and such, and I can go on and on and on.

Do you see me commenting about the Polish welfare system? Or even Polish labour market? No. Because I don't know anything about it. So therefore it is wise for me to shut up and listen. The same goes for you guys when passing moral judgements about things happening over here.

With my limited experience on the Polish labour market I would be inclined to say that it is EASY to find a job. I wrote ONE application letter, I got two interviews, a psychological test, they hired me and the pay is more than good. So when someone says to me that it is difficult to find a job and that the pay is crap, I would be inclined to say (with my EXTREMELY limited experience) that what they say is not true. Instead I know that my experience is limited and probably not representative and I choose to keep quiet.

Only a wise man knows when to shut up ... think about it for a minute.

It was in the top 40, but it was NOT a hit, where is the logic in that. The fact that it even got airplay would be beyond most peoples understanding. The song is clearly racist and would be banned in other countries. As a recent article mentioned about the Dutch- Denial, indeed, appears to be a built-in part of the mix. Both in the form of anti-semitism, and in the various forms of racism, patronising attitudes prevail. In this sense, the anti-racist norm on which we have seen in the past, is part of this denial: since racism is seen as barbaric, nobody – except for small fringe groups – will allow themselves to be called racist or anti-semitic for one moment.


I suggest you look at the above quote in bold.


Or is it that you are required by law to have a minimum of two shareholders in a company?


Stop being so patriotic, trying to defend all things ' Dutch '

No, you can set up a limited company with only you as a shareholder. Again ... you are wrong. For a joint stock company you need at least two. Otto Workforce is a limited company (ottoworkforce.eu/nl/over-ons-bedrijf-otto/over-otto/otto-raadv ancommissarissen: "Sinds 2008 kent OTTO Holding BV een Raad van Commissarissen...".

One of the operational directors is Karolina Swoboda, a Pole. So as I said ... a Polish woman exploiting her own countrymen and women.


You yourself said on page 3 of this thread:


I showed you it wasn't. Wrong again. Besides ... you should also remember the time in which this was what you call a hit, namely around the Carnival-period in the south of the Netherlands. Therefore it was a "sing along". Again, warszawski, you know nothing about our society, therefore you should refrain from making moral judgements.

We have the same kind of songs and cabaret about Germans, English, Belgians, French, etc ... etc ... etc ... . This discussion is on the same level as we had on this forum before about people feeling insulted about some television programme. You know how I think about that.


It isn't racist at all ... I didn't know Poles were a race on their own.
I am sure that there is some Polish song or cabaret ridiculing Germans, Russians, or whoever. And that one wasn't banned either. So you are wrong again.


Try to educate yourself who is doing the anti-semitism in the Netherlands and then come back to me again.

Here is a paper that was written, you may want to read and educate yourself. Stu

ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1315&context=etd


The links you provide are to the website of OTTO and do NOT provide extracts on the company showing when Karolina Swoboda became a shareholder and how many shares she owns, this point is very important.


You may want to read up on Racism in 2011, it takes on many different meanings...


So your statement proves that racism/discimination is acceptable in the Netherlands.


If they are holders of a Dutch passport, they are Dutch no matter what their ethnicity. Therefore it is a Dutch problem.

dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/orthodox_jews_should_leave_hol.php

Such extreme.

I can admit that my comments about insects were stupid and I apologize for that, however...


It obviously was. Hit doesn't necesserly mean that It was no. 1 all year long.


LOL ! Anti-Polonism is clearly a huge problem in your country and instead admitting It, all you do is trying to drag us down into childish word games.

Warszawski ... please !!



From 2001 to 2003!!!!!!!! The world has changed!!!

Come on ... how stupid do you think I am. You really think I wouldn't read it?!?!.

Wrong again, warszawski!! :D:D

Stu, what do you make of that fella Geert Wilders?

Is BP Dutch? I thought BP was British Petroleum?

I lived in Holland and think it's a wonderful country, truly the most forward thinking in Europe, I learned a lot there.

Interesting discussion between Warszawski and Stu.
Don't worry Stu, all our countries get a bashing from time to time, the interesting thing is, for the reader, to see the discourse between two apposing ideas, not the bashing itself.

Sorry SeanBM, yes I was wrong about BP ... mea culpa!

Geert Wilders is someone who just voices some opinions that really originated after 9/11. Every muslim was a terrorist. He's a populist as there are populists in many different countries. I don't care much about his views, but I do think he should be allowed to say what he thinks, and not be prosecuted because of it.

I don't worry, SeanBM. When people who have never studied a country as such, or have never lived there for a substantial amount of time, start passing moral judgements, the only thing I do is laugh at them. I will try to educate them a little and if they don't accept that, then I will just let them be and hope they will be happy with their delusions.

Narrow-minded people are everywhere I guess. One can only try so much as to try to enlighten them, but if they choose to keep to their unfounded preconceived opinions, then let them be ... . I know better.

The motivation for posting this was to educate you and make you aware of the Russian immigrants and the problems they faced in the Netherlands, which you have previously claimed as, none.


I am wrong on two counts only,

1. Unemployment benefits in the Netherlands are at 70% Brutto
2. I considered Stu, to be more opened minded to the problem of discrimination against Poles/immigrants in the Netherlands.

Based on our discussions, I understand Pym Fontaine ( RIP) Geert Wilders(PVV), Henk Kamp ( VVD),Europe’s justice commissioner Viviane Reding,Janusz Wolosz, spokesman for the Polish embassy in The Hague. Could have resolved all these minor issues by speaking to Stu… As there is no problem and its just a sing a long.


Now you are most definitely wrong here,Stu

Whatever warszawski, think what you like.

You were wrong on multiple fronts, you know it, but you don't want to accept it.

And you were wrong about this limited company as well, and all the rest for that matter.

Go one and live in your little world full of your preconceived ideas. You have never lived here, know probably one or two Dutch people (if at all), have never had any (long) discussions with them, never studied the country and its society, etc ... etc ... etc ... .

Well done, warszawski. I will let you win the argument. You should be proud of yourself.

But it is through your and Warski's argument that I learn something.


Hey, the U.N. should also read PF, they might learn a thing or three :)

Now come on, we are going off topic here.

Is the amount of racism in The Netherlands any more or less than other E.U. country?

Is the economic crises the reason for the rise in far right? why aren't bankers being blamed for their mistakes?

And I am still a bit mystified about the actual details, if I work in Utrecht for longer than 6 months. lose my job and am gainfully seeking employment, I can claim the social welfare or do they want to send me on the next bus back to where I popped out of my Mum?

Yes I have this is why I speak from experience.


Or is it that you are required by law to have a minimum of two shareholders in a company? The aforementioned is my question, I seem to remember a minimum of two directors, although the laws could have changed since my time.


There is no winner and loser it is a healthy debate, the unfortunate thing about PF, is most discussions turn nasty, this one did not. Good luck with the new job and the move to Poland Stu.

Sorry it is in Dutch, SeanBM, but I will translate the relevant passages:

ontslag-krijgen.nl/voorwaarden-voor-een-ww-uitkering.html:

1) you have to be insured against unemployment through your employer (which is pretty standard)
2) you have to be unemployed (which is obvious)
3) you have to be immediately available to accept work
4) in de period before your unemployment you have to work at least 26 of the 36 weeks, not necessarily fulltime; even if you have worked only one day in this last 26th week, it counts as a whole week. If you are an artist, filmmaker, musician or support technician (I guess in the art world), you only have to work 16 weeks of the last 36 weeks before you became unemployed.

5) you don't get unemployment benefit if you became unemployed due to a fault of your own (like theft from your employer, fraud, physical violence, or when you handed in the notice yourself).


As I mentioned before, warszawski ... when you want to start your own limited company (BV), you can be the only shareholder. Only in case of a PLC (NV in Dutch) you need at least two shareholders.


Sorry ... I did become a little nasty to you. I am sorry for that.

Thank you warszawski ... I come back to you at the beginning of September to ask you about importing a car from Germany, cause I gather you are quite an expert in that. I'd like to make use of your experience. Take care.

We imported a car from the Netherlands after living there for three years, more recently we imported a car from Germany. It depends on the your status, if you have a Polish spouse and she has been living outside of Poland ( legally) for longer than 3 years, if I remember correctly and she is returning to PL,she can bring back her property and a car tax and duty free, so in this scenario, it would be better to buy a new car in the Netherlands, alternatively, you can bring your own car from the Netherlands and register it in Poland for the duration of your stay, without paying the import tax. Send me a pm explaining your situation and I ill give you feedback based on my experience and what procedure we followed.

Please be mindful of the topic.


MOD, maybe my post 111, could assist Poles who are currently being encouraged to leave the Netherlands, or Dutch natives that have decided to leave their homeland for greener pastures in PL?

Put it into a separate thread

Just one last thing.

For those Poles who feel screwed by their Dutch employer or knows people who think they are, there is a leaflet written by the Dutch government.

It tells you what your rights are regarding minimum wage.

Maybe it helps people who are thinking of working over here without running the risk of falling victim to lousy employers.

I only hope that EU loving Poles will finally start opening their eyes. Westerners need us to do the worst jobs they would never touch and once there is no anymore shortage of people willing to do that, then f*ck out back where you came from. And to get into that "paradise" we were forced to sell for pennies our banks, industry and let Carrefour, Tesco, Kaufland, Strabag and all the rest make billions on our slave work. Well done, now we only need to paint ourselves black and mission is accomplished.

May I remind you, Grzegorz, that it is Poles who willingly go and work abroad? You make it sound like "the West" comes over to Poland and snatches people from their homes. Don't make it anymore dramitic than it actually is, will you?

You forgot to mention IKEA by the way. I heard that it celebrated its 50th or 60th birtday a couple of weeks ago. Can I remind you also, that all of these companies employ a lot of Polish people, like LG/Philips in Wroclaw for example. Or Raben transport, to name just another Dutch company. Hey... if you don't like these companies ... then boycot them and buy your stuff at your local Piotr I Pawel or Zabka or any other Polish store.. It's your perogative to do so. But remember that these foreign companies employ thousands of Polish workers as well, also in very well-paid jobs.

@Grzegorz
The Democratic and economical changes that have happened in PL, since 1989 has resulted in a better life for many Poles, freedom of travel and a more stable economy. During the early years of Capitalism, we saw many incidents of Pole on Pole violence and crime at the borders of Poland/Germany. It is not the Westerners, that need Polish workers, but the European countries, that have taken the risk/opportunity to open their borders and allow workers from the new ascension countries to flow in. While there are good employers there are also predators, who prey on the needy/desparate,unskilled and uninformed, this is an area that needs to be tackled. In 2011, you should expect at least minimum wage and appropriate living conditions when supplied, workers are not slaves, it is 2011 not 1811.

Stu - many people have little or no choice, simply, believe me - I guess Polish unemployment figures would double if all the Poles working abroad returned

Grzegorz also has some issues with 'shady' privatisation of Polish industries and financial sector - most industries got sold for less than their 10-year share in Polish market - I was talking once to a man who was familiar with (if not insider of)Polfa Poznań privatisation (now GlaxoWelcome) - he told me Glaxo would get the return of their investment in just a couple of years (even as few as 3) - sounds like selling yourself out cheap, ain't it?

I'm not saying It's worse than before 1989. I'm saying that members of Polish "elites" where either naive and blinded by "good west" or corrupted and western politicians/corporations exploited that to the limits. So much for "we are helping you". We were made plebs of Europe and I see no chance to turn it back. Show me any serious country, which has most of the banking sector and large industry under foreign control.

SeanBM, when you go on your march against the banks and governments, it reminds me of one of the classic songs of the 90's

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ABDPc5BLgL8

Here are the lyrics
lyricsmode.com/lyrics/j/james/government_walls.html

Warszawski gave me the idea to post some more links so people can make an informed choice when wanting to work over here.

We have an association of temporary work agencies (ABU). If you are employed by such an agency, better make sure they are a member of the ABU. The ones who aren't will be either made to become a member and adhere to their statutes or they will be banned from operating in the Netherlands.

Here is something about the ABU in English - abu.nl/abu2/talen.asp?pagkey=98165

Here is something about the ABU in Polish - abu.nl/abu2/talen.asp?pagkey=98183

Here are the leaflets and brochures they have translated into English - abu.nl/abu2/talen.asp?pagkey=98166

And here are the leaflets and brochures they have translated into Polish - abu.nl/abu2/talen.asp?pagkey=98184

Together with my links in post #112 on this page, you should be able to find enough information about what your rights are in the Netherlands and avoid becoming another statistic of someone who is abused by some lousy employer.

Hope it will help.

warszawski
70% of your previous salary and for an awarded amount of time depending on how many years you amassed for your entitlement.

One thing - does he have similar issues with the way that flats were sold for peanuts to the occupants?

I thought that Neanderthals are extinct but no they are alive and kicking !

Hello everybody. I observe the whole situation from the US and must admit that it makes me wonder why does Geert Wilders expect to be supported here. His bigoted ideology expresses everything that America is against. Except few rednecks and KKK members nobody will embrace his sick radical ideas. I think, the problem that Europe faces is its inability to effectively assimilate and integrate various cultures. It is very important to extend the dialog with the representatives of various ethnic and cultural groups. This dialog would lead to creation and implementation of common values that could become the foundation for further integration. The great danger occurs when we start to alienate or condemn specific religions or minority groups. Such actions lead to further alienation and radicalisation of these groups. In perfect situation, the citizens themselves would develop more interest in different cultures, learn about them, and extract what is best. This intercultural exchange of knowledge would most certainly make people feel appreciated and incorporated into the nation. Unfortunately, people are not interested in others. We often do not care about other people's history or culture and ignore eachother. Ignorance causes all sorts of problems. It is not only the problem of native Europeans but also all minorities. They too should demonstrate interest in us and in eachother. Practical cultural education is the way to tolerance and mutual understanding. Lack of such education creates stereotypes and leads to further alienation and hostility. In case of Poles who can't find jobs, they will most likely go home sooner or later. Minimal social benefits should be only accessible to people who already worked in their host country for at least a year. The number of years one worked in the host country should determine one's access to social benefits. Governments should be allowed to deport criminals. I do not mean people who get parking or speeding tickets but those who rob or kill people. It is just common sense. I myself was born in Poland. I lived in Scotland for five years. Now I live in the US. I have never encountered hostility in any of these countries; in fact, everybody was very helpful. One has to be proud of his humanity and respect for others to be respected. Especially if one lives in a foreign country. Respect for the people, law, culture, customs of your host country will help you. If you are open and kind to people, 99% of them will be kind to you as well. If you never say Good Morning to your neighbour, they start to think of you as of an alien. Be kind, open minded, tolerant and people will respect you. If some poeple are still hostile, the others will support you. Whenever I see immigrants I try to be open to them. I say good morning, how are you. Treat them as I would want to be treated by them. It helps me, and them too. It works both ways.

Wilders is a Dutch patriot. We need someone like him in England.

They were worried about Poles then..wonder what are they gonna do about immigrants now?