2ND MIRACLE OF THE VISTULA: youth mysteriously appear out of nowhere!

This is a very good observation indeed. If it were such a hot topic, it would have been reflected on the PF one time or another, but the truth is it has never been. Of course, some people - like Gumishu for example - would always like to consolate themselves in follow the propaganda that echos their own views, so they would be very likely to turn their own thinking off. The fact that the President did not turn his own thinking off may then be very irritating indeed. The public TV in Poland is full of stories of how bad the judges are and how badly they behave in public places, but that may not necessarily reflect the reality as a whole. There are not the slightest estimates of how many of them are rotten creatures nor are there any attempts to asses it. The point of this propaganda is to make people believe that all of them are like that, so the reforms proposed by sheriff Ziobro are fully justified. But that's the language of propaganda, so to speak, you are not in need to show all the shades of grey, you are obliged to paint your picture in black and white instead.

There is no doubt that the courts systems in Poland should be reformed, but there is doubt that it should be changed during one night and under the slogan: "we are PiS, so we know better". Such a pace and such a one-sided picture of the judges and the courts as has been painted on public TV recently may only lead to questions that there may be something more to the agenda of this reform than merely "strenghening the sense of justice among ordinary people".

Thus, the general conclusion for Polonius and Gumishu is - as prof. Bralczyk nicely puts it in a TV advertisment - wyłącz prąd, włącz myślenie!

yeah mafketis - collectivization everywhere - you are so observant

at cms: and again the new laws especially on appointing new judges would stop the practice of the judiciary being a power unto themselves without any checks and controls - that it must lead to pathology was shown multiple time over the III RP time - if you haven't noticed it then all I can call is blind

PolishForums is not the pinnacle of the world neither it is of Poland - if you haven't noticed judicial scandals and scandals involving the judges during the 3rd RP you haven't been paying attention at all - and the terms 'special cast of people' and common theft by judges were not made up by PiS - what i also recommend you to pay attention to is that judges only recently have been obliged to report their financial assets - how convenient for them what do you think

again - I am not saying all judges are corrupt or partisan or consider themselves 'a special cast of people' but enough of them are warranting the idea to finally have checks on them and showing them that they should be servants of the people not owners of Rzeczpospolita Polska

Apparently a conversation with an advisor, Zofia Romaszewska, a highly decorated (including order orła białego) former solidarity activist gave Duda the out he was looking for

"ja żyłam w państwie, w którym prokurator generalny miał silną pozycję i nie chcę do takiego państwa wracać"

I've lived in a country where the prosecutor general had a strong position and I don't want to return to such a country

wiadomosci.onet.pl/kraj/kim-jest-zofia-romaszewska/br9fgdk
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zofia_Romaszewska (bio of the solidarity activist)

Do want to tell her she's delusional or a traitor?

I would call her overreacting and too fearful - we don't have the Big Russian Brother and Służba Bezpieczeństwa terror and infiltration apparatus to deal with now to threaten that the power would be used against the will of the majority of people


sorry should be special caste

And what provisions of the law would prevent that? or is PiS's say so good enough for you?

sorry should be special caste


I believe PiS are well-meaning, decent people who's rule is to the benefit of the most people at the expense of the so-called elites - the elites who are egoistic and don't want to share power or be controlled by the people

I'm sure many of them are and some are not. Like any political party.


then they have a terrible, hamfisted way of going about it.

gumishu]i Duda;

Yes, he cave in under pressure. That is an inevitable effect of a leader centred party. Anyhow that wasn't the issue were he should play for himself. He got not political instinct.. Unless the play goes deeper.


A very good point. That kangaroo is annoying saying some stupid and outlandish stuff that shows that his knowledge of the Polish politicks is purely superficial.


Frankly nothing. It is clear you are one of them commies and I expect from you the worst. You never disappoint.
I'm just confused sometime by maf but I suspect it might be due to the fact that contrary to what he says his familiarity with the Polish issues are far more superficial.

you don't tickle the elites, you strike them with a hammer after they are exposed

The problem with the people in power is always the same. Well-meaning decent people slowly turn into the so-called elites. The become egoistic and first of all - don't want to be controlled by the people and even more - they are increasingly reluctunt to share power.

And believe me - after years in power PiS will be no exception. Każda władza deprawuje, a władza absolutna deprawuje absolutnie! Anyway, why should they? Have they been they cast (not 'caste'!) of any other material than the rest of us - simple and mortal human beings - as you naively seem to belive? That is why provisions against that are needed in law and such provisions should be introduced wisely rather, that is not during one night and not on the basis of the propaganda themes displayed on TV.


It is not, but Polonius' opinion is the pinnacle of all things wrong in the times of PO and all things good in the times of PiS which was the point of Maf's remark. Yet Polonius had not noticed anything wrong about the court or judges in Poland until the PiS propaganda started talking about it. Am I right, Polly? Say 'yes' or no' ...

Poland cannot sustain many more years of pis and not be a bigger laughing stock than it's already becoming. They may have good ideas but are clueless on how to do it or how to make it look like they are not doing anything bad internationally. Totally clueless. All Duda did was a small demonstration that not every body is willing to follow totally blind. Or what he did is what the chaiman said to defuse the situation, i am not sure which just yet.

I am totally surprised at you calling Maf 'kangaroo' since for a long time it has been a public secret on the PF that such a name has been assigned to another person.

Oh and you are such a great and deep thinker and independent wise man. Bah, you're not so stop playing a referee here and stuff your whistle ..... casue you're not a one.

Nobody is that annoying like self appointed smart-asses.


They give examples, one by one. People who lost their livelihood and health due to criminal action of some judges are telling their stories.
I mean those are people with names and faces and their story can be checked.
The point is that those judges even if their wrongdoing is self evident or their are couth red handed performing a common criminal act like shoplifting are protected. Nothing happens to them, they are unaccountable and above the law.

Nobody claim that ALL are like that.
They just want to change the system to make system work and make judges accountable. Turn your hearing aid on while you are listening to the radio. Such a system and system people are the remind of the PRL and need to be destroyed.


Sure, should be reformed but not now. All should be perfect and hunky-dory, Well its almost 30 years and nothing happened and nothing changed. Wait till you're blue on the face. I suspect those are excuses of those people who are against the change but don't want to admit it to it openly.

Yes, she has been traumatised by her experiences of fighting against soviet Poland like many people. In a way she was on of those who ended up privileged after 1989. In my opinion she doesn't know what she is talking about.


I don't care, the other person I call otter.
I don't call maf a kangaroo but marshupial

That is not about Pis versus PO fight. I don't think much about PiS either while PO are scum and traitors.
The crux of the matter is the fight post-commies (system and people) versus those who want to crush it as it is harmful and oppressive for Poland and Poles as whole.

Very noble. In the meantime, most people simply want to live in a normal European country, where democracy rules in the guise of "4 years and then it's the other teams' turn" and lead good and enjoyable lives. Poles like Krause don't stop the rest of us from doing so and all this talk of elites is a load of envious bull. IMO.

Poles like Kaczynski and Ziobro would love to stop a great deal of self determination. As per the abortion fiasco - the bitter irony of a closet homosexual trying to take away Pro-choice.

And Duda has really given the finger to Kaczynski in his address to the nation, so all is well in the world again, apart from the local court reorganisation....

the point is that at the very moment PiS is voicing the concerns of a big chunk of the society, plenty of people have awakened to the fact that contrary to narratives some people don't mean good to the society at large but only a small elite of which they are/want to be a part - these people will not support PIS forever unconditionally - if it degenerates it will lose their support - I count myself among these people

And I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time - the judiciary in Poland was without any democratic control which led to many scandals - my ideal is democratic election of judges of all levels - but to be a practical realist I for now accept the idea that our democratic representatives hold the controlling power for us

people are getting awakened to the reality that they are suppressed, exploited, manipulated and controlled by the elites - and I guess this process is irreversible

you choose to be blind and deaf - it's your choice - plenty of people have awakened though and plenty more will awaken in the coming years - eventually in not so distant future all of the current democracies will be direct democracies with people directly establishing laws in referendums - this perhaps will come sooner in the older democracies than Poland but it will eventually happen here as well

This is something that people are worried about. An election can be manipulated in various ways, from the bread and circuses of the 500+ and the traditional system of Party patronage. Both are regressive steps.


Yes. While PiS scheme and Duda vacillates, there seems to be, as the thread title implies, a huge groundswell of youth involvement that could as easily wrongfoot them as it did Theresa May when she lost her majority.

By scum, and soviet era military intelligence and secret police people in the background. Those who think they just despaired they must be a very naïve people..

I have just watched the political broadcasts on TVP1 by PM Beata Szydło and President Andrzej Duda (one after another). Duda did not say anything that would explain his veto more thoroughly. Szydło sounded as if the PiS government was just starting to prepare a coup d'etat in Poland.

Oh my God!

Addendum: the commentators on TVP3 seem to have been urging people to converge on Warsaw in order to demand the bills vetoed by the president being got through.

Almighty God, what is happening in Poland at the moment !?

Crisis management or something more sinister? Too early to say. I was at work so couldn't see it. At least Duda didn't announce Martial Law.


If it's crisis management (the most likely option) they'll go on a charm offensive (not that they have much charm) and keep Kaczynski and Macierewicz well away from the cameras. JK and AM would love a coup, however their advisors hopefully understand the strength of the likely resistance as well as the swift and decisive international response to the first fascist coup in an EU/NATO member state.

Governments are elected by a form of referendum though Gumishu. If the party in question has a clear manifesto, then people know what they are voting for and referendums mid-term are a waste of money and executive power.. Of course PIS forgot to mention that they were planning a PRL dictatorship. Those of us with some intelligence suspected as much of course...

Seriously though, wouldn't you agree that the best form of government theoretically is anarchy. Then we could just please ourselves, within the laws of God and human decency? The opposite of oppression, which is what PIS is all about.

And yes, Ziemowit, the lady is barking. But we already knew that.

I hope you appreciate that Ziobro is Goebbels jon? And the most dangerous of all.

When announcing his veto decision, President Duda said he expected criticism from both sides, and he wasn't wrong. Many Law and Justice politicians expressed dismay that the veto would undermine the reforms, although they have yet to see the president's legislative proposals. The opposition was generally in favor, but Civic Platform leader Grzegorz Schetyna insisted that all three reforms must be vetoed. "We will not let this go," he emphasized. And on the streets some of the protesters continued to rant, chant and pound the pavement. Poland is not an easy country to govern.

Doubt it . It could be a good thing. To end soviet rule in Poland.


Dougpol for a small time alcoholic with no real asses and no axes to grind (beside some progressive BS obsessions), you're fine whichever party or whatever option is in charge. Other people Doug have lots to gain or lots to loose. You should just stop yapping about your obsessions, its immaterial. In other words another clueless foreigner puts his snout where it doesn't belong just for jollies.

Yes, with all the guile but with less skill and charisma. He's also something of an Anastas Mikoyan, hoping to benefit from being (or appearing) not as bad as some of the others.

Macierewicz is the one we should be worried about. As J Kaczynski's physical and mental health visibly deteriorates, he will certainly be on the phone to him day and night.

The 18-35s of urban Poland however will probably surprise them all.

They might surprise you what yo know.

What we all know. That PiS are stunned by the public response to their attempted destruction of democracy.