Well, if you don't want to talk about Wołyń, we can always mention Koliszczyzna - 100,000 - 200,000 murdered Poles and Jews...
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koliszczyzna
with episodes like the Slaughter of Human...
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rze%C5%BA_huma%C5%84ska
... and I already mentioned Batoh - the "Sarmatian Katyn".
We don't have to limit ourselves to Wołyń if we want to discuss Ukrainian genocides.
There were also humourous elements there, when Ukrainians hanged Poles, Jews and dogs together saying that "Lach, Żyd i sobaka, wse wira odnaka". Let's study the glorious one-thousand-years long Ukrainian history together. By all means, let's not concentrate on Volhyn only.
And were is the list of Russian atrocities? Where is the list of 'liberators' raping, robbing and burning? How come you can disregards all that? As I said, it's clear you have bias Just one example: Operacja Polska NKWD (1937-1938): Masowy mord na Polakach zamieszkałych w ZSRS, uznawany za jedno z największych ludobójstw w historii narodu. Zamordowano wówczas ponad 111 tys. osób
Meanwhile, before we embark on this ambitious historical project of examining glorious Ukrainian history, let's listen to some voices from Polish politicians and journalists...
Krzysztof Bosak
The cult of Bandera is flourishing in Ukraine thanks to many years of support. They were given everything they asked for-and more. Yet when we were handing out assistance, Minister Czarnek, without demanding any conditions, and while claiming that Poland had no conditions, did it not occur to you that Kyiv was taking advantage of us? It certainly occurred to the Polish side. I raised this issue a few years ago as well. We should have negotiated firmly when there was still time. Perhaps we should have appealed to Elon Musk to stop subsidising Starlink services for Poland, so that Poland would stop subsidising them too? The slaughter of Poles was a systematic consequence of UPA ideology. Let us call it by its proper name: genocide. They committed genocide.
Krzysztof Usiądek
Poland sends billions. Poland trains Ukrainian soldiers. Poland extends credit to Ukrainian local governments. And in return? A pantheon for war criminals and a ban on searching for the remains of our murdered compatriots. How much longer will Tusk and his people pretend that it is raining?
Dariusz Matecki
Ukrainians are a heroic nation, one that has fought bravely for its independence. Yet the only heroes they honour in their historical narrative are murderers of newborns, pregnant women, and the elderly.
Włodzimierz Skalik
Revoking the order awarded to Zelenskyy is only the first step. It is time for further measures. Ukraine should be cut off from financial support and left to fend for itself. Migration policy must be revised, and border controls tightened. Most importantly, we must stop involving ourselves in this war. It is not our war.
Łukasz Warzecha
No one will convince me that the sudden flood of Ukrainian accounts, spreading pro-Bandera rhetoric on X, is simply a spontaneous surge of interest in the history of our "brotherly nation."
And were is the list of Russian atrocities? (...) Operacja Polska NKWD
When Russian president names a Russian army unit "Heroes of NKVD", come back and talk to me. When Waffen-SS (or NKVD) units are honoured with marches in Moscow, as they are in Kiev, come back and talk to me. When nazi-collaborators like Melnyk are buried with state honours in Russia, come back and talk to me.
both Poland and Russia are deeply, profoundly and fundamentally anti-fascist countries. Nazism is totally and utterly no-pasaran with us.
This is funny considering how rapidly nationalist and right wing conservative Poland is, and that Poles are still completely obsessed with the kind of national betrayal myths that fascists adore and created the perfect climate for the Nazis' takeover of Germany. There's also the huge antisemitism and tendency to villainise and blame minorities, who are seemingly guilty of anything and everything, unlike the pure and saintly Poles.
Alongside Italy, Poland is probably the EU country I could most easily imagine tipping over into fascism.
considering how rapidly nationalist and right wing conservative Poland is
Poland is neither. Poles voted liberal government of Donald Tusk into power and conservative parties are in minority (not to mention nationalists).
There's also the huge antisemitism
What? We're not even in Top 10 of countries with highest number of anti-semitic incidents (see the image attached below).
Poland is probably the EU country I could most easily imagine tipping over into fascism
Well, I can't answer for what's happening in your sick imagination. It is not Poland where marches in honour of Waffen-SS units are organised.
The rest of your post is drivel which reminds me that I do not discuss with cowards who post anonymously rather than under their usual username, so don't expect any more answers from me.
When Russian president names a Russian army unit "Heroes of NKVD", come back and talk to me.
To be honest I'm more concerned that Russia keeps meddling and attacking it's neighbours. While Zelensky's move was very questionable and caused understandable outrage it's a symbol. Russia's action are causing danger.
And of course it's not as much about the national mythos of this country or that as a need for Ukraine to use every tool they can find against the country invading them. If calling something that has an ounce of propaganda value, however unsavoury, he should use it.
A few people getting worked up, mostly politicians and commentators, is irrelevant compared to the challenges that Ukraine face now.
President Zelenskyy and his advisors obviously understand that the people who are likely to get worked up about this are worked up anyway, so it is therefore worth doing. The government in PL can't change policy on the war without seeming petulant.
How clueless you are about Poland. Who isn't anti-semistc today and for a good reason? You must be Zionist trying to distract people from the real holocaust to the imaginary one.
Poland should change policy to the realistic one, rather that give them everything and some on silver platter. No need to whine about their internal polices , we should peruse ours and see clearly what is in Polish national interest and what is not. Both parties PiS and PO are trash. No able to run a lemonade stand let alone a country. If they rob our firm we should rob two of theirs. Simple.
The government in PL can't change policy on the war without seeming petulant.
They can simply say we run out of money. And if the society starts to get tired of this BS .... you should know by now that Poles won't care very much how it 'looks' if they get annoyed enough.
I'm reading what Poles think about this Ukrainian scandal... and noticing something strange.
There's a lot of noise about "a failure to build influence in Ukraine", "a sad state of affairs where Ukraine does not view Poland as an equal partner in comparison to heavyweight countries", etc and so on.
But the strange thing - to me - is that a lot of the so called "pragmatist" Poles are worried that despite providing tremendous aid to Ukraine, Poland may not get a meaningful slice of the pie when it comes to reconstruction post-war.
What the hell? What are these people on about?
To me, it's just strange that some people could view "reconstruction" as any sort of potential source of income.
Isn't reconstruction always a net drain? Even in Iraq?
Alternatively, do Poles expect that Brussels or Washington will provide huge sums for reconstruction, but that then Polish companies can profit from it?
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IMHO, reconstruction is something Poland will be paying for - not profiting from. Maybe individual Polish private companies will profit, but in the end - the state will have to pay for the work, proportionally to other European countries and America.
Using stolen Russian money to pay for reconstruction is a pipe dream. By the time the legal appeals are exhausted, and Russia is permanently parted with its money - it'll be 10-15 years.
Knowing that using stolen funds is complicated, the EU is coming up with various exotic structures - but it all more or less boils down to more debt.
-//-
So.... why the hell are Poles so upset about losing out on potential reconstruction work?
First - the war needs to end.
Second - the money for reconstruction must be found.
Third - the Ukrainians are not idiots. They will try to take the money, but not let anyone in. They'll argue this is imperative for restarting the economy, and attracting back refugees and work migrants. Any attempts by various Poles and Slovaks to slice up the reconstruction funds, will be called out as neocolonialism, and predation on a wounded party.
-//-
Anyway, Polish concern with reconstruction funds - as evidenced by the discussion on Twitter - seems absolutely retarded to me. It's truly fantastical thinking.
A real example of counting your chickens before the eggs hatch.
@Bobko America corrupted Poland. It's a country where only money matters. If they could find a way to make money by turning dead Ukrainian soldiers into soap, they'd do it.
It's normal to act in self interest, and try to do things that will benefit the national economy... but this seems just strange.
-//-
Personally - I don't think there will be any "reconstruction".
The EU will throw a couple billion extra on the table, after the war is over, and America will give nothing. Japan, Korea, Canada, etc will pony up a couple more bucks.
The EU will continue focusing on unlocking stolen Russian money, and in the meantime will feed Ukraine promises on imminent EU accession.
Joining the EU, will be the moment when "real" reconstruction can begin. And it will happen on the German, Italian, French, Dutch, and Spanish taxpayer's dime.
-//-
Until Ukraine joins the EU, the EU will use various excuses for why they can't give Ukraine more money:
1) "We already gave you a lot - our voters are getting tired"
2) "We are deep in debt, and can't make ends meet - as we are running huge budget deficits ourselves" (France and UK especially)
3) "We're working on getting you Russian money, just hold on a little longer"
4) "We provide benefits and jobs for Ukrainians living and working in the EU. We'll extend those programs further, so remittance flows are maintained. That's a huge help already!"
Ukraine will never be admitted to the EU, like Türkiye. In Turkey's case, these are cultural reasons; in Ukraine's case, it's primarily the country's size and location. You don't accept a country that you can choke on. Ukraine will always remain in the Russian sphere of influence as a buffer country between light and darkness. 😉
in Ukraine's case, it's primarily the country's size and location
Ukraine is just big, physically. So agriculture is the primary threat.
But the amount of people that remain is now small. Now their own statisticians say that there is at most 26-29 million people remaining.
Ukraine is no longer "France-sized", like it was in 1992, when it had its peak 52M people.
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I think Ukraine is "absorbable" for the EU.
Turkey - you are right - it's simply too big. Bigger than any EU country, even Germany, in population.
The EU will choke on Turkey, but Ukraine maybe not.
-//-
The problems with Ukraine are more demographically structural.
They're super old. Out of 41M people, pre war, only 12M participated in the labor force.
There's an absolutely massive amount of pensioners, which will be an albatross around your neck now.
But you know... they'll die sooner or later. You just gotta carry them on your neck for another 25-30 years, and after that the extent of the problem will be much more manageable.
And it's not about how awful Wolyn was but about you having bias
Yes, exactly. That's why I brought up the RuSSian whitewashing of their history in this discussion and their attitude towards Lenin, Stalin, etc.
When Russian president names a Russian army unit "Heroes of NKVD", come back and talk to me.
A whole city and oblast in RuSSia is named after a guy who singed the order to murder Polish officers in Katyń and other places (and to make things worse - Poland borders with it) - Kaliningrad, you hopeless, hypocritical RuSSophile. And nobody in RuSSia did anything about it. Nobody in RuSSia does anything about it. And they probably never will. Because noone in RuSSia cares. And that's just a symbol of this messed up, dubious RuSSian attitude towards Stalinist past.
To be honest I'm more concerned that Russia keeps meddling and attacking it's neighbours.
Of course, for any sane person that's a bigger worry. So we have to keep things in proportion.
A few people getting worked up, mostly politicians and commentators
No, it's not just "a few people getting worked up." It's different now. It feels like Zelensky collectively spit in our faces after ordinary Poles (not just the Polish government) have been helping Ukraine and Ukrainians from the very beginning of the invasion. This is bad.
Literally this whole thread is about what he did. Do catch up.
I have.
Zelensky's move was very questionable. Russia's action are causing danger.
Correct.Fear Russia, not Ukraine.
Posters.Who do you think is stirring up this anti Ukrainian sentiment?
Think about who gains most advantage from it and think which country are great propagandists.....it shouldn't take any intelligent person long to work it out....
@Miloslaw You must not be Polish, because Poles still remember Volhynia and the other ethnic cleansing actions done by the Ukrainian UPA. The Russians killed about 22,000 Poles in the Katyn massacre, but it was still dwarfed by what the UPA did when they killed 80,000 to 100,000 Poles. Look at the history-this is why many Poles will never fully trust Ukrainians.
We love humanity. You glorify war and hate. If you had a modicum of intellectual honesty, you would be equaly outraged by Israels invasion and ethnic cleansing of Lebanon, instead you dehumanise the arabs as you do the russians. Allah and his followers will deal with you.
