Torq you should suspend your moratorium on social media, and open up Twitter for an hour.
I'm afraid that if I did that, I'd get completely sucked into that raging shitstorm.
I don't have to do it. I'm satisfied just knowing that all of Poland has finally woken up to the reality of what modern-day Ukraine is and who Volodymyr Zelensky is. That is quite enough for me.
What did he gain by this? 🤨
I am not sure what His Excellency, Chevalier of the Order of the White Eagle (pending revocation), Volodymyr Zelensky gained by this. I am quite sure, however, who in Poland will benefit immensely from this - in no particular order...
- Bosak's wing of Konfa, and the entire Konfederacja in general - Grzegorz Braun - good old traditional Dmowski camp (Myśl Polska) - various pro-Russian milieus around people like Piskorski, Sykulski, Modzelewski, Tołwiński etc. - some fringe alternative-media ecosystems
... and you know what? I am not sure if it's an entirely bad thing.
It has a lot to do with anti-Ukrainian narration of parties like Konfederacja, Braun's
You keep saying that. It is lefties narrative, talking about democracy and people' rights but then deny them the right not only to vice their opinions but a fact they have agency of their own. Always looking for some actors with sinister motivation who mislead those poor inanimate logs. Very Russian of you to see people in this way.. People they have their own experiences and contrary to the incompetent politicians, they don't see being a doormat and spending Poland resources on some ungrateful little turds as some sofisticated political scheme. ---
Considering yiu dismiss a lot of modern women perspective as being brainwashed and not understanding what's good for them you should look in the mirror first
What is? Blaming politicians for ramping up negative emotions around all kinds of issues for a political gain? Nope, you're wrong, it's universal.
deny them the right not only to vice their opinions
What the hell are you talking about? I'm not denying any right to anyone. But what our politicians are doing has real life consequences for ordinary Ukrainians living in Poland.
Very Russian of you to see people in this way..
I don't see people in this way. But propaganda always has some impact on at least part of the society.
Considering yiu dismiss a lot of modern women perspective as being brainwashed
Yes, according to Ironside feminism brainwashed women, those "poor inanimate logs" without their "own experiences," who deep down just want to be "doormats" spending years of their life "on some ungrateful little turds" as part of some sophisticated societal scheme, haha :D
Well, based on this post, if this guy is right, I have an impression that both the RuSSian and Ukrainian societies just don't give a sh1t...:
Because you could write exactly the same thing about RuSSians and their attitude towards what their country and compatriots did to Poland, Poles (and to others).
And at this point I don't know what can be done in this situation.
I'm not saying that Poland is perfect in this regard, it isn't, but at least there usually are discussions on heated historical topics in the public sphere here, people seem to care more? I don't know... It seems both Ukrainian and RuSSian societies have a lot of maturing up to do in terms of dealing with their history... And maybe lack of that maturity is partially responsible for this war... 🤔 🙁
"Sedno problemu polega na tym, że czynnik polski po stronie ukraińskiej po prostu nie waży." "The crux of the problem is that the Polish factor simply carries no weight on the Ukrainian side."
Well then, pardon my French, but f*ck them if a bestial genocide 'simply carries no weight' to them. The bastards.
"Polska nie jest priorytetowym partnerem" "Poland is not a priority partner."
It isn't, because we gave them everything for free, without any conditions, and made ourselves into 'servants of the Ukrainian nation' (the PiS idiots). So it's hardly surprising that they don't respect us.
"obawiam się, że wpłynąć na stronę ukraińską już się po prostu nie da" "I'm afraid that it's simply no longer possible to influence the Ukrainian side."
Then we close the border and build a line of fortifications there, suspend all aid, and impose a firm veto on UPAine's entry into the EU. It's about time to stop bending over backwards for them.
but f*ck them if a bestial genocide 'simply carries no weight' to them. The bastards
Yes, yes, nice, Torq, but RuSSians have exactly the same attitude towards Katyń massacre, for example. So what do you say to this? Also "f*ck the bastards"? 🙄
Then we close the border and build a line of fortifications there, suspend all aid
I don't know about you, but I still prefer to border with Ukraine, rather than RuSSia.
It's about time to stop bending over backwards for them.
Russians have exactly the same attitude towards Katyń massacre
Russia (or actually the Soviet Union first) admitted responsibility for the Katyn massacre in 1990 (that's already 36 years ago). After that Boris Yeltsin made gestures of apology and remorse - during a 1993 visit, he laid a wreath at a memorial site and apologized for the massacre. In 2010, the Russian State Duma formally acknowledged that the massacre had been carried out on the direct orders of Joseph Stalin and other Soviet officials. As for Vladimir Putin, he has described Katyn as a Stalinist crime and stated that there was no justification for it.
So, no - it is not the same as Ukrainians who not only never expressed apology for the genocide but only called for "honoring the victims on both sides" (lol!)
Imagine if Germans named one of their brigades, the "Waffen-SS heroes Brigade", had streets, stadiums and monuments dedicated to Hitler, Heydrich or Himmler. Oh, and imagine that they called Poles to reconciliation and honouring victims on both sides!
I don't know about you, but I still prefer to border with Ukraine, rather than RuSSia
But we already have border with Russia and also with Belarus (practically the same thing).
However, now that you mention it... let me think - would I prefer to have in the East:
A) a border only with Putinist Russia? B) a border with Putinist Russia and - on top of that - also a border with quasi-nazi, banderist, genocide perpetrators glorifying Ukraine?
I know that. That was long ago though and was done by a president who isn't respected by majority of RuSSians. Putinist RuSSia went onto the course of historical reversal and whitewashing:
So, no - it is not the same as Ukrainians who not only never expressed apology
Poroshenko kneeled before the Wołyń memorial. So there was some gesture.
called for "honoring the victims on both sides" (lol!)
Well, Poles did take bloody revenge, so there were victims on both sides.
And, btw, when we were discussing with RuSSians about Katyń they were also doing whataboutism by bringing up Soviet POWs who died in POW camps in Poland after 1920. Some even went as far as saying that Katyń might have been Stalin's revenge for that. And if they didn't do that all we got was: "Many more Russians were killed by the Stalinist regime, who cares about your Katyń, we had many such Katyńs..."
To be honest, I get an impression that RuSSians are such a deeply damaged nation that they may have a very limited (if any) capacity to feel empathy for others. It seems that even for their own people... They're not honouring even their own victims of Stalinist regime.
I think it may be similar (not as bad, but still) with Ukrainians - they went through some sh1t too, plus they were also under the Soviet rule, unlike Poles...
I'm afraid it may take years to get through those historical issues with them...
had streets, stadiums and monuments dedicated to Hitler
Dude, RuSSia still has Lenin's and Stalin's statues plus Soviet red stars on many buildings. There was never a proper destalinisation of RuSSia.
But we already have border with Russia and also with Belarus (practically the same thing).
And if Ukraine will fall it will be RuSSia all the way.
If you have such a problem with choosing between A and B then I'd like to remind you that it isn't Ukraine that's invading their neighbours, but RuSSia is. 🤦
Oh, and, btw, I'm talking here about those RuSSians who didn't deny that the Soviet Union was responsible for the Katyń massacre. Because there are still those who think that the Nazis did it and they think that Putin admitted to it being a Soviet crime only to appease Merkel at that time lol I'm not sure if you realise the extent of mindf*ckery that can be happening in the RuSSian minds...
Millions of people were cleared of crimes, and released from incarceration. The cult of personality was denounced. Every statue and portrait of Stalin was removed from all public places. All his sadistic buddies - executed or jailed.
It's only now that Stalin is returning into public life - and still the majority hate it.
If you want to see a place that still venerates Stalin go to Maoist China, or Juche North Korea. The Russian-led Socialist states like Vietnam, Cuba, Angola, etc - were all decidedly anti-Stalinist.
Well, Poles did take bloody revenge, so there were victims on both sides.
You are a victim of the woke industry. Shame on you.
Do you also think that Israel is justified in taking "bloody revenge", by killing 50X more people than they lost?
doing whataboutism by bringing up Soviet POWs who died in POW camps in Poland
Who did this? Velund? Kostya? I never saw it.
was: "Many more Russians were killed by the Stalinist regime, who cares about your Katyń
You are being willingly obtuse.
Nobody says "who cares about your Katyn".
The meaning is more - "we couldn't even protect ourselves, how could we protect you?".
Stalin crushed Russia's soul, and sent the nation into the emergency room, where it remained on life support until better people arrived on the scene.
In Stalin's Russia, a son would snitch on his father - for dissident views. A SON WOULD KILL HIS FATHER!!! Hello?
How are we supposed to have defended Poland from the work of the state machine, when we couldn't save our own families?
Well, Poles did take bloody revenge, so there were victims on both sides.
Allied bombing raids killed many civilians in Dresden and other Third Reich cities, but you wouldn't compare those killed civlians to Holocaust victims, would you?
So, it wouldn't be right for Germans to demand honouring victims on both sides, right?
One way or another, I don't think Katyń is comparable to Volhyn Genocide. In Katyń the victims were mostly (though not only) military personnel, police and security officers, and border guards. In Volhyn the victims were civilians.
If you want to find something resembling Katyn, then the Ukrainian massacre of Polish prisoners of war after the battle of Batoh is a better analogy...
In Katyń the victims were mostly (though not only) military personnel, police and security officers, and border guards
This is no excuse - but Stalin had fought these same people in the 1920s, AND LOST TO THEM.
Don't forget, Stalin was a field commander in the Polish-Soviet war - and a disastrous one at that.
One could say that Stalin lost that war for us, through his sheer incompetence.
-//-
When Stalin gained the entire Polish officer corps in his hands - he punished them for the past humiliation. Because... he was a small person, mentally.
He was always a small person, ever since growing up a cripple in the middle of nowhere in the mountains of Georgia.
He was always angry at life, and angry at others who "underestimated" him.
He was indeed. A small man... maybe even a small demon...
... but at the end of the day, he sent the Red Army to crush the Nazis in Poland - the same Nazis who wanted (and would have!) to pass the best of us through the crematorium chimneys and enslave the rest. 600,000 Soviet soldiers died in the process. 30 for every Pole killed in Katyń. And he gave us the Regained Lands together with the whole of Upper and Lower Silesia with all their industry - a one in a 1000 years chance to gain anything in the West materialised and was of immense importance in turning Poland from a backwards, p*ss-poor farming country into a modern industrialised nation.
Sure, he didn't do it out of love for Poland but facts are facts.
So maybe - just maybe - when he is currently being, beyond any reasonable doubt, vigorously sodomized by a horde of horny, well-hung devils in hell for twenty-three hours a day, he still receives this solitary hour of rest to allow his battered anus a modicum of recovery. I like to believe that all those Georgian, Kyrgyz, Russian etc. boys who gave their blood to liberate Poland on his orders bought eternal memory and Heaven for themselves plus an hour-long rest everyday for Stalin's anus.
Does Bandera's, Melnyk's or Shukhevych's anuses get even a milisecond of rest in hell? I shall allow myself the audacity to seriously doubt it.
It's only now that Stalin is returning into public life - and still the majority hate it.
Sorry, but where is this hate? I can't see it. RuSSians must be hiding it very well lol 🙄
Do you also think that Israel is justified in taking "bloody revenge"
What on Earth are you talking about?
Who did this? Velund? Kostya? I never saw it.
I already mentioned more than once that I've discussed with Russians/RuSSians outside of PF....for seven... freaking... years... (until 2014) Among them was, for example, a member of Memorial heavily involved in fighting the so called Katyń lie in RuSSia (he got a medal from a Polish president for his part in revealing and documenting the Katyń massacre).
The meaning is more - "we couldn't even protect ourselves, how could we protect you?".
No, it wasn't about that. The topic of discussion was education. We were asking why there's no mention of the Katyń massacre in history textbooks at schools in RuSSia. And the answers we were getting were: "Who cares about your Katyń, we had many such Katyńs, stop masturbating with it, quit whining about it, Poles - the eternal victims, you have skeletons in your closet too, etc. etc."
That was pretty much the level of "empathy/sensitivity" of our RuSSian interlocutors...
Maybe if we had helped the Czechs in 1938 instead of invading them, the entire history would have been different too? Maybe...
They had brilliant military industry, strong fortifications, good tanks and a rather large army. Together we would most likely have stopped Hitler in 1938. But we wanted Zaolzie...
---
We can only speculate about such matters but facts are facts, and I stand with my opinion that Stalin is being f*cked in the arse in hell for 23 hours whilst Bandera for full non-stop 24.
pretty much the level of "empathy/sensitivity" of our RuSSian
They come from a perspective, where they think that if our grandfathers had not helped you - the Germans would sooner or later finish you Poles off completely.
Not a very "pretty" argument, but with the power of historical reality behind it.
Is Katyn bad? Yes, very bad.
Is it better to be a German murderer's general governorate? Probably not.
-//-
Don't forget - we lived together for another 50 years, where Poles doubled in population and life stabilized.
With Hitler, you would have been lucky to come out after ten years with any memory of what it meant to be a Pole.
-//-
We avenged every crime the Germans committed against you, and then took even some more. We broke them, in such a way that they still cannot recover. We cut off pieces of their flesh and handed them to you, so you could get strong again - and hopefully fight together with us in the future. The fattest piece of meat on the table at the time...
We made it so that no German will ever look East again without sh*tting his pants.
I don't think Katyń is comparable to Volhyn Genocide.
In Katyń they were mosty reservists, teachers , professors, Olympic medalists, scientists , know artist cream of the society, in Volhyn these were women children and old men mostly simple farmers. ----
Blaming politicians for ramping up negative e
Maybe they are voicing concerns of people. If you supress them it will blow up. There is no other solution or change in policy to address those issues, just blame some politicians and enjoy the simpleton world of stupid leftie. ---
Poles did take bloody revenge,
Sure , in your delusional ignorant mind. There were no revenge, idiot.
... and enough historical documents to know that it is exactly what would have happened.
I think that's a big compensation for Katyn.
This is more or less my argument too, only I couldn't phrase it so eloquently.
In Katyń they were mostly reservists, teachers , professors, Olympic medalists, scientists
Of the roughly 22,000 murdered in Katyń: 8,000 were Polish Army officers (including reserve officers), 6,000 were police officers, gendarmes, border guards, prison officers, and other security personnel, and the remaining 7-8 thousand were civilians. So mostly military/security personnel.
in Volhyn these were women children and old men mostly simple farmers
Indeed.
This is one of the reasons why it often feels like they are second-rate victims, somehow worse than those of Katyń, Palmiry, Intelligenzaktion or Sonderaktion Krakau. If anything, I would say it makes them first-rate victims - because they were a threat to no one and were murdered in most bestial fashion only because of their ethnicity. May God punish us with fierce hell-fire if we every allow ourselves to think of Volhyn victims as being in any way worse.
but you wouldn't compare those killed civlians to Holocaust victims, would you?
No, I wouldn't, because the way the Nazis treated the prisoners in concentration camps was incomparably more inhumane and evil. Doesn't change the fact that I'm against taking revenge. As for Polish revenge on Ukrainians - it was equally barbaric, as far as I remember - killing little babies, etc.
I don't think Katyń is comparable to Volhyn Genocide.
You mean that Katyń was more Nazi-like? Cold, methodical, systemic, hands tied, a bullet in the back of the head i do dołu. Mass murder of Polish prisoners of war is clearly more palatable to you... I'm afraid majority of Poles don't share your sentiment though (me included) 🤮
30 for every Pole killed in Katyń.
How can you even write such things? WTF is wrong with you?? I see that your RuSSophilia ate not only your brain, but also heart and Polish soul... Jesus...
Does Bandera's, Melnyk's or Shukhevych's anuses get even a milisecond of rest in hell?
I don't know, but I know that, unlike Stalin, they didn't "grace" us with decades of communism and subjugation to the Soviet Union.
somehow worse than those of Katyń, Palmiry, Intelligenzaktion or Sonderaktion Krakau
Ukrainians are Pygmies or Papuans - cargo cult nation.
They could not and would not fight proper army formations (God knows this - because SS Galizien collapsed after *40 minutes* of combat). We spent more time cleaning up their ****, than we spent killing them.
Terrible fighters, no discipline, and no morale.
They were very good at killing innocent children and women, however. There, they are Olympic champions.
Mass murder of Polish prisoners of war is clearly more palatable to you
Isn't it more palatable for you? Soldiers killed with bullets in the back of their heads, compared to children being torn out of their mother's wombs and impaled on fence pickets? Children tortured and bestially murdered in front of their parents and vice-versa out of pure hatred is more palatable for you than military personnel and elite civilians killed with bullets because they were a threat to the Stalinist regime? I'm afraid majority of Poles don't share your sentiment (me included) 🤮
I see that your RuSSophilia
... or is it possible that your Russophobia is affecting your judgment?
they didn't "grace" us with decades of communism and subjugation
In those decades of communism and subjugation Polish population nearly doubled (from 23 million in 1945 to 40 million in 1988) and Poland turned into a modern industrialised nation (6th industrial power of the world). Yes, Bandera, Melnyk and Shukhevych surely didn't "grace" us with anything like that.
They were very good at killing innocent children and women, however.
I know. Same with UPA - slaughtering civilians came easily to them, but whenever they faced the Red Army or the Polish People's Army (LWP), they ran so fast they would have made Usain Bolt blush.
You know that it isn't really such a flex if you have to compare yourself to Hitler and Nazis (and what they did or would do) in order to look good? So maybe leave Hitler and Nazis alone. That's Germany's problem. And they've dealt with that problem pretty well (with the help of the Allies, but still). You didn't. That's the problem.
if our grandfathers had not helped you - the Germans would sooner or later finish you Poles off completely.
So we're supposed to shut up about Katyń because of that? And everything else?
I think that's a big compensation for Katyn.
In reality there's no compensation for Katyń. Just like there's no compensation for Wołyń. There's no compensation for the Holocaust. Such things are beyond any compensation, imho.
All you can do is remember, reveal and tell the truth about it, condemn it, show respect to the victims and never repeat it again. And educate. Because if we don't learn about the history we have with our neighbours we won't understand them.
That's all what it's all about. Deeds from decades ago that you one-sidedly decided to be "enough of a compensation" won't replace you behaving like normal people today.
What sort of a man runs away abroad when his country is fighting for its life? And modern-day Ukraine is much more the country of those from Western Ukraine than those Russian-speaking boys from the east.
If you're going to tell nonsense
Sure - lies, big lies and statistics, but the progress and civilizational advancement that Poland made in the 1945-89 period is a fact that even the most zoological anti-communists and Russophobes must acknowledge.
And they've dealt with that problem pretty well (with the help of the Allies, but still). You didn't
You will not compare me or my countrymen to Germans.
We are forever victors - and they are forever defeated. Every muscle, and every brain cell - became activated - when fighting them. They wanted to destroy us, and we wanted to destroy them... we won, and we broke them permanently.
Don't you dare make these comparisons. Torq and Ironside will correct you.... but you are dangerously close to "traitor" territory.
If Tacitus, or BB - are ready to argue with me - I will argue with them, but not you - traitor.
They are Germans - you are just a lost child.
You didn't. That's the problem.
They fight stupid wars in favor of Israel, where they kill tens of thousands.
Don't compare these murderers to us. Thank you.
We are Russians, not slaves of money like these sad peoples.
won't replace you behaving like normal people today
We are doing what we believe is right. You want to be a slave, and enjoy all the humiliation - that's your right.
