GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!

Well...what with all this "loyalty to Poland/Polish King"...why no Polish nation??? Doesn't fit somehow...

Keep on grasping at straws...I stay with this here:

plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus


That's all there is to his "polishness"...shifting of borders...as it happened so often in these lands.
Of no concern to his heritage and his culture or his language (as should partitions Poles very well know)!

Middle ages :p
Anyway Poles never was an nationalistic ethnos, very lax in this compartment ....either you were noble or .....nobody:p
The partitions and XX century changed it a bit!

Mainly because there was no nation as you understand it today, even signing Kopernik in as German by a German member of his family does not carry any weight in the light of the time.

Also yes there was an option of Polish, Poland at a time was one of the more recognizable powers and people did sign in as member of the Polish nation both in Kraków and Italy, the point with Kopernik is that his uncle sponsored it and it was his call, not Kopernik'


Not bad, i sincerely doubt the guy had any ulterior motives (if you marry a Polish woman how will you sign in your kid?) but he was not speaking for Kopernik, at Jagiellonic University he did not sign as a member of any nationality which is a good indicator of what he thought.

If you want to discuss Kopernik you need to look at his allegiances and choices rather then what his uncle did and his choices were pretty obvious, fight against the Germans for the Polish king, your argument was that this was an internal German fuss but Kopernik was a commander of the forces of a faction that wanted to join Poland not to mention Allenstein or Olstyn had at a time at least half the citizens as ethnic Poles.


Dont you love how they ignore the Polish father? A reliable source!

What proof?

PS: He could have had sworn allegiance to the martians that still doesn't made him martian...is that so hard for you polish thick heads to understand?

It's about ethnicity, heritage, language, culture not political decisions!

Germany's biggest folk hero Arminius once swore allegiance to the Romans, he was so romanized that we don't even have his exact german name, that didn't made him Roman at all (as the Romans found out much to their chagrin later).

The problem BB is that at the time we discuss there was no nationality or citizenship, these things were understood by people who lived then as being subjected to a faction or a ruler, Kopernik chose his citizenship, nationality and all the other things you can speak of in modern terms by choosing to serve the Polish king.

No one made him, Teutonic Knights would have him, he was a world class specialist in siege and defence engineering that anyone in Europe would pay a fortune to have yet the Polish king did not pay him a fortune and he still chose to side with him.


His fathers name was not latinized (he was a commoner) and was Mikołaj, it still exists in the archidiecesial library in Kraków.


Except then he turned against Romans and slaughtered over 20.000 of them in the Teutoburg forest, Kopernik remained a loyal subject of Polish crown to his death actively furthering Polish interests and contributing to the massacre of German troops storming strongholds outside Olstyn/Allenstein, thats a pretty big difference isnt it?


Armin, today you would know him as Herman.

Nope, Hermann was a German translation from the name Arminius, the Romans have given him to romanize the wild German youth they had now as hostage.


yaddayaddayadda...doesn't change his German heritage!


You *** Sok! ;)

There is no proof that his father was either polish or German. If you would have one now suddenly you would become quite the sensation! :)

...pure bred Poles...all of them!

What German heritage? We dont even know if he spoke German, we know he spoke Latin and chose it over German language, does it make him *gasp* a Roman?! :)


No of course there's no definitely proof but Germans were not named Mikołaj, there's a possibility that he was Bohemian but if thats the case he was a polonized one, he definitely was not a German, and if he was he preferred to have a Polish name which makes him an odd one.


Which at a time had much more to do with Bohemia and Poland, it stopped being Polish just a few decades before and was if i remember correctly under the Crown of Bohemia, though still inhabited largely by Poles, later in the 14th century it would go to Hungary.

Sorry but using German names of what back then was a rather non-German region is not helping your case :)

Of course not, his mom has spoken to him martian surely! :)

Manno, that get's boring now..bye!

Really? Its a relief that his father spoke to him in Polish then:)

This book is a good source on Copernicus:

tinyurl/y98cwkwm

This book like so many other books on Copernicus makes two key points

A) Copernicus' Uncle Lucas Watzenrode the alleged "German" uncle went to the few Polish schools there were at the time and recommended Copernicus go to Polish schools (in the beginning of the book)

B) Copernicus' "German" uncle also wanted Copernicus to fight like hell against the Teutonic Knights/Germans that were invading Poland and pushing protestantism. Most Germans in the area GRAVITATED to prostentantism in that area and Martin Luther. So its very UN-German for his "German" uncle to ACT AGAINST GERMAN interests if he was German.

There are about three million German citizens in Germany who speak perfect German and have German names including "Watzenrode" but they are of Polish ancestry.

So just because someone has a German name then that makes them German? Many Jews have German names but they don't consider themselves German. They consider their ethnicity Jewish.

The great English writer Joseph Conrad doesn't have a Polish name but we know he is of Polish ancestry.

Copernicus lived the way many Poles did. He studied at Polish and then Italian schools which is what mostly Poles did at that time. Germans did not do that.

Germans also didn't fight the Tuetonic (German) Knights, push staunch Catholicism and keep trying to rally other Poles to fight for Poland.

Copernicus' ethnicity is definitely 100% Polish.

Kopernik never had a German name, ever. He never signed a single document with his name in German in his life, he always used Copernicus which is in latin.

Copernicus is a latinised version, not a German name, many popular German media intentionaly omit the fact to impress their assumption that he was German because to the average Joe Coppernicus sounds kinda German, except its not.

There's many assumptions (usually biased) by German scholars, or forwarding how German editors signed his book as proof but Kopernik in person never signed a document other then in Latin.


No its not, its 50% Polish since only his father was Polish but Kopernik himself during his life chose his citizenship and allegiance, he chose to side with Poles and fight against Germans there's nothing more telling then that.


No, Germans lived in caves and sacrificed babies to evil dark gods, it would help your position if you werent so bloody ignorant you know.


Watznerode like Kopernik chose allegiance to Polish king but unlike Kopernik he was a full German ethnically speaking, lets not be biased.

Why are you being so delicate all of the sudden? :)

I'm not but having raving idiots defend our position like that actullay damages it (Kaczyński syndrome) ethnically Kopernik was half German half Polish, he was however a faithfull citizen of Poland, he studied in Polish and Italian universities and not in a German one, he also never signed himself in German and never served a German political authority while choosing to serve a Polish king and further Polish interests on the field of battle and diplomacy so its obvious we have a much better claim on him then Germans and most encyclopedias and historians recognize it but saying he was 100% Polish or that Germans never went to Italy is utter rubbish.

Maybe it's more important to look at what Copernicus accomplished than to look where he was from? I always looked at Copernicus as a great scholar and yes, I've always admired him and yes, I always have been taught he was Polish and no, it doesn't matter to me where he is from. To me he's a great product of the European renaissance, Polish renaissance if you like. Or the European/Polish enlightment, if you so want it. It's somehow the same discussion with Vincent van Gogh: everybody knows he is Dutch, yet the French (used to) claim he was actually French. This is not meant as an attempt to bring this thread to van Gogh, for the ppl who don't understand, but as a comparison.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

He kicked a lot of German arse in the service of Polish king, he was a commander of a large Polish contingent that helped defend his city and one of chief Polish specialists on the field of combat engineering.

Oh and the astronomy stuff too :))

it clearly says he was Polish.

German nation is fictional and artificial nation, evil baloon that spread and consume Slavija. See,... no wonder that turn has come to Kopernik to be consumed.

but

Interesting - in the last line they are practically denying that Kopernik had any kind
of German heritage. However, calling those historians, who claim that he was German,
"娱乐、体育、文化和社会新闻，并提供电邮及 即时通信服务。主要服务北通信", is a little
bit rude in my opinion (the remark about their mothers was totally unnecessary).

You can all froth at your mouth and throw tantrums as you want. All your "protestations" couldn't change it...maybe because it's just ridiculous?

blog.sstl.co.uk/archives/176-GMES-becomes-Kopernikus.html

GMES becomes Kopernikus

As it should! Not Copernicus or Koppernik or any other quatsch....

Kopernikus flies again

ec.europa.eu/dgs/jrc/index.cfm?id=4710

everything would be allright when all Slavs become germanized. Then, would be peace.... peace as it is peace in grave and, nobody won`t care about Kopernik


we both very well knows that it won`t finish with Kopernik. We both very well know how would this end

Sokrates,

When I was referring to people having German names not necessarily being German, I was referring to Copernicus' "German" uncle which Germans keep referring to as proof Copernicus is part German. This "German" uncle Lucas Watzenrode lived in such a way that was very un-German. NO Germans ever had his loyalty to Poland OVER GERMANY. Also it was not uncommon for Poles to speak German back then just like today (more German is spoken in Poland today then most other countries).

Copernicus' "German" uncle was a die hard Catholic, a die hard defender of Poland, pushed for Copernicus to be educated in Polish schools (NOT GERMAN schools) and he defied the teachings of the German Martin Luther's Protestantism which most Germans in that area and time were gravitating to right and left.

So out of nowhere this "German" Watzenrode decided he would buck the grain against virtually all other Germans in that area and era? Ridiculous. This "GERMAN" would URGE his nephew Copernicus to fight against what most of the other Germans in the area were gravitating to like their fellow German Martin Luther's Anti-Catholic teachings and the Tuetonic Knights.

So you think there were many Germans (like Watzenrode) fighting against other Germans on BEHALF of POLAND???? ARE YOU SERIOUS??

The amount of times historically Germans fought against other Germans/Teutonic Knights ON BEHALF OF POLAND you could probably count on one hand.

Even the German Martin Luther referred to Copernicus as a Pole albeit in a deragatory way. Among the many complaints Martin Luther had against the Catholic Church was the "abnormal teachings" of this "foolish Pole" Copernicus. The Catholic Church in the beginning did not condemn Copernicus' theory of the Earth revolving around the Earth. It was Martin Luther and his fellow Germans and Teutonic Knights who vocally condemned the Catholic Church for accepting this Catholic Copernicus "controversial theory". The Catholic Church in trying to maintain credibility then condemned Copernicus' work.

Also you attack me for saying that "Copernicus going to Polish and and then Italian schools makes him Polish". So you're trying to tell me that Germans who then (like now) were hyper ethnic conscious about being German, would CHOOSE to go to Polish schools in mass over German schools? You think it was common for Germans to choose to go to Polish schools? And it was Copernicus' "German" uncle who urged Copernicus to go to Polish schools over German schools.

Given that you financed much of the program you got to pick the name but that wont work for most of the history books, they're already written.


Kopernik was part German, he was definitely more Polish and felt Polish given that he chose his allegiance to Poland but his mother was undeniably German.


Ever heard of "Lizard Confederation"? Germans in the area were fed up with the Teutonic Order (though admittedly not all).

On one side you have medieval nazis who squeeze you out of money and healthy kids for their military, on the other you have a rich benevolent and powerfull kingdom of Poland who's kicking the Teutonic Knights all over the place, who's side are you going to choose?


Quite a few yes, though calling them Germans is a bit confusing, much of Watzenrode family and German speaking citizens of Teutonic Order were germanised Prussians many of whom at the time didnt really feel German.

Yes we did and yes they are! And if some Poles were inclined to read them they wouldn't repeat the same crap over and over...

Sorry, BB, the wrong parent was Polish ;) ;) Everyone knows that the father is more important in such matters :0

At the time the dynamic between Poland and Germany was completely different, Poland was an extremely rich country and for example studying in Jagiellonian university was recognized in all of Europe on par with Bologna and other great academic centres, English kings admited engineers just on principle of studying there.

Also Media while Germans did have episodes of chauvinist behaviour even then the relations were much better, especially in Gdańsk which can be considered a Polish-German city.


French high school history books say he was Polish, so do Russian primary school ones, British ones in the 80s said he was Polish (not sure if they changed it to mixed descent, we live in an era of political correctness) , American historiographers refer to him as Polish, apart from your chauvinist crap and German history books which i read and some of the "facts" like Poznań being a historical German city made me laugh no one except an odd few encyclopedias refer to him as German.

Its always either Polish or mixed descent and with good historical basis for it.

what a bull!

Kopernik was part German, he was definitely more Polish and felt Polish given that he chose his allegiance to Poland but his mother was undeniably German.

But Germans during this time period and area where Copernicus lived were acting on their German ethnic consciousness being fueled by the German nationalist Martin Luther and his Anti-Catholic Protestant teachings and hence following the teachings of their fellow German. So its a COINCIDENCE that Copernicus' "German" mother and Uncle would resist this very tempting German Marthin Luther when virtually all other Germans in the area were being swept up with his Anti-Catholic teachings?? LOL

Come on that's like saying our German blogger pal "Bratwurst" would side with Poles over Germans LOL

Ever heard of "Lizard Confederation"? Germans in the area were fed up with the Teutonic Order (though admittedly not all).

Lizard Confederation was a group that was prominent many years BEFORE Copernicus. Germans having loyalty to Poland OVER Germany/Tuetonic Knights was the exception and not the rule. Especially when you have a popular German like Martin Luther whipping up Protestantism/German pride. Its no accident Martin Luther PUSHED to have the New Testament put in GERMAN.

"On one side you have medieval nazis who squeeze you out of money and healthy kids for their military, on the other you have a rich benevolent and powerfull kingdom of Poland who's kicking the Teutonic Knights all over the place, who's side are you going to choose?"

Yeah that's a nice cliche but you keep dismissing the POWERFUL influence of the German Martin Luther and how his presence and teachings were RESONATING STRONGLY with virtually all ETHNIC Germans in that area. Yeah I guess the fact Copernicus' "German" mother and Uncle not only did NOT get caught up with all that Martin Luther Pro-German/Protestant Eurphoria AND URGED Copernicus to fight it, is ONE BIG COINCIDENCE LOL

You're boring and uneducated, Watzenrode did not work with the Teutonic Knights because they wanted to control his fief and thats all there is to it, he was only an ally of Poland by association.


Riiiight, Kopernik never signed any book other then Copernicus which has nothing to do with German, his German editors did sign it in German but that amounts to the same as his uncle enrolling him in a German student corporation which was not even indicative of the nationality since you had Italians, Spaniards and even Poles in it.

There was a Polish corporation and you had Germans Ruthuenians, Poles and Norse in it so?


Seeing that your arguments are that his mother was German and his uncle enrolled him in a German student organisation is even less.

You realise most European countries teach him to be Polish, are they all wrong too?


At least of mixed heritage or Polish :) Of course he's of mixed ethnic heritage but he chose his own citizenship, you want to ask him why did he choose to fight Germans for the Poles?:)

Sokrates
You're boring and uneducated, Watzenrode did not work with the Teutonic Knights because they wanted to control his fief and thats all there is to it, he was only an ally of Poland by association.

Baloney.

You're uneducated about the tremendous appeal the German Martin Luther had with ethnic Germans in this borderline area of north east Germany/Poland which overwhelmingly went Lutheran/Anti-Polish Catholic. To suggest that a so called "100% ETHNIC German" like Copernicus' "German" Uncle like Watzenrode would not go along with this appeal because of "control of his fief" is silly since other Germans controlling fiefs went along with Martin Luther and Tuetonic Knights. It was a very glorious thing for Germans in this area to go along with the Tuetonic Knights against Poland and the Catholic Church.

Bratwurst Boy - you keep attributing the writing in the Copernicus Manuscript (Nicolai Copernick Canonici Varmiensis, in Borussia Germaniae mathematici) to Copernicus himself but that is completely false. The Copernicus Manuscript is just one copy of De Rev. that made it through the centuries and is now housed in the Jagiellonian. The original owner of this copy of De Rev. was Jakob Christmann (a German) and he is the one that wrote this in this one single copy of the manuscript long after Compernicus himself died. NO other versions of De Rev. have this text. Also, back to a point on the Lizard Union - it was initially founded in 1397 by Prussian nobles but by the time Copernicus' father joined, in the mid 1400's, it included Poles who worked directly with the King of Poland to incorporate Prussia into the Polish Kingdom. Not sure how much more proof one would need to call Compernicus' father a Pole by nationality and allegiance (and ethnicity as Silesia was 80%+ Polish).