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German legal discrimination against Polish speakers


TheOther 5 | 3,759
26 Oct 2018  #121
they made the conscious decision to emigrate.

They were citizens of the German Empire who moved from one province to another to find work.
Ironside 47 | 9,574
27 Oct 2018  #122
Poles had always been immigrants to Germany, never been natives...

Yes, I think y have been right as to only Silesia and minority rights before the war.

However above it is a BS. Half of the eastern Prussia, Gdansk with surrendering area had been Poland rightful territory that belonged to Poland long before German state encompassing most of the former Holy Roman (German) Empire states emerged from the mist of history. Not that long ago to be blunt.

If comes to Silesia it was a part of the Polish Crown, part of Poland for centuries and hence you were talking about 'ethnicity' Those people in lower Silesia became Germans in the second part of the 19th century.

I digress, the point is that Polish people had been natives in Germany for the most part of the 19th century up to 1918.

There is no historical justification for granting them those rights nowadays

dude, read the legal justification for granting a minority status in the EU. OK? It is all about EU. It is about century old roots not historical justification. Because if you talk about countries there all is about reciprocity. Meaning Germany doesn't need to do Poland any favor in that regard. Poland should just treat German people in Poland in the same way Polish people are treated in Germany. Tit for tat. Simple.

I would be against such a solution - simple, smooth and elegant.
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #123
dude, read the legal justification for granting a minority status in the EU.

That is precisely what the German government does according to Wikipedia:

The position of the German government is, that after the German territorial losses after World War II, the current Polish minority has no century old roots in the remaining German territory, because Germany lost all the territories where people of German and Polish ethnicity overlapped. Since they are therefore only recent immigrants, they do not fulfill the requirements of a national minority according to the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and the Treaty of Good Neighbourship. Being German citizens, they still retain all civil and political rights every German citizen possesses, and therefore can voice their will in the political system.

Tit for tat. Simple.

It would be, if the situations were comparable. The German minority in Poland lives now there because of the changing of borders. The Polish people in Germany live there because of the concious decision to immigrate. The German minority in Poland lives in a relatively concentrated area. The Polish people in Germany live all over Germany. There is a good case for granting the German minority in Poland those rights, but not for Polish people in Germany.
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #124
the current Polish minority has no century old roots in the remaining German territory

Your point is not valid: the RuhrPolen, the Poles in Ruhr Metropolis moved there in XIX century and at the beginning of XX century. And even earlier than that (end of XVIII beginning of XIX century) in Rhineland.

polska.pl/politics/foreign-affairs/asymmetry-polish-german-relations
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
27 Oct 2018  #125
Your point is not valid

That still makes them economic migrants.
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #126
And while living in the area, they did not suddenly find themselves living in a different country. The difference is that there was no historical Polish minority in Germany around 1989 that had retained their Polish character, whereas there was still one in Poland. The Polish people who migrated to the Ruhr Valley usually lost their Polish identity very quickly, my family history can attest to that.
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #127
And while living in the area, they did not suddenly find themselves living in a different country

You'll twist it in any direction just to defend a losing cause, won't you? The word-equilibristic won't affect the reality you know.

lost their Polish identity very quickly, my family history can attest to that.

Now I can see where that spark of intelligence of yours is coming from.

Germans in Poland are Polonized. Nor they cultivate any German traditions. Does it mean that Poland can striped them off their minority rights?

Another interesting question is: at what point we should stop considering them a minority in Poland?

At the beginning of the 90's around 300 000 Polish citizens has declared that they belong to 'German minority' and in the year 2011 only 150 000 did so.

ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/9s9ktkqTURBXy82YWUxY2RhOWFlNjk2Zjc4MjdlMWYyZGQzYWNjOTViNC5qcGVnkZUCzQMUAMLD

The minority is disintegrating by two factors: they are being assimilated within the Polish society and they are dying out at the same time.

Either way they won't be even an ethnic minority in Poland soon. So I think that the "German question" will just solve itself naturally

Even the votes for German minority representatives has halved in just 15 years between 1997-2011 in opole region which is a crib of 'German minority' in Poland:

w 1997 - 2 mandaty (16,96% głosów na Opolszczyźnie, 0,39% w skali kraju)
w 2001 - 2 mandaty (13,62% głosów na Opolszczyźnie, 0,36% w skali kraju)
w 2005 - 2 mandaty (12,92% głosów w województwie opolskim, 0,29% w skali kraju)
w 2007 - 1 mandat (8,81% głosów w województwie opolskim, 0,20% w skali kraju)
w 2011 - 1 mandat (8,50% głosów w województwie opolskim, 0,19% w skali kraju)

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mniejszo%C5%9B%C4%87_niemiecka_w_Polsce
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,015
27 Oct 2018  #128
I've read it's today about 5 million Germans with polish roots in the Ruhr Valley alone...across the country maybe even the double, that would make for at least 10 Mio of them. (To bad that's only estimates and no real statistics)

But besides the naming you wouldn't know it....maybe our cultures are much more similiar and compatible than some PiS hater wants to believe.
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #129
You'll twist it in any direction just to defend a losing cause, won't you?

You are the on twisting the facts. Like this one:

Does it mean that Poland can striped them off their minority rights?

There were never minority rights in the areas that are still German. The Polish people in the Ruhr Valley were thus never stripped of their rights.

at what point we should stop considering them a minority in Poland?

Poland agreed to grant the minority rights in their treaties with Germany after 1989. This is not something they can simply revoke at will without consequences, nor was it granted purely out of goodwill. It was part of the package that made Germany act so conciliatory towards Poland and support their accession to the EU.

So I think that the "German question" will just solve itself naturally

Perhaps, though it will take time. We see the same happening with the Sorbs and Danish minority.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
27 Oct 2018  #130
It was part of the package that made Germany act so conciliatory towards Poland and support their accession to the EU.

Indeed, the Treaty of Good Neighbourship. If Poland unilaterally cancels it, then Poland can also face the German-Polish Border Treaty being unilaterally cancelled too. AfD voters in particular would be delighted with that one, as would older CDU voters.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,015
27 Oct 2018  #131
Ummm....I don't think anybody in Germany wants that....I doubt anybody wants that...not even the AfD! That whole topic just doesn't exist anymore as a topic...
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #132
Poland agreed to grant the minority rights in their treaties with Germany after 1989. This is not something they can simply revoke at will without consequences

But of course Poland would never do that. We surely wouldn't do what the Germans did with their 1940 Goering decree. We wouldn't reach such a low level. That would be uncivilised, savage even.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
27 Oct 2018  #133
But of course Poland would never do that.

Poland already is doing it in Opole, what with forcing towns with a German minority presence around Opole to merge with Opole properly.

Glad you agree that it's uncivilised and savage.
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #134
Just a shy question: what in case, God forbid, the 1000-year EU collapse? European history knows such an incidents when the projects built for centuries collapsed much sooner, some even after just short 12 years :-)
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #135
In that case, the minority rights for Germans will be the least of Poland's concerns.
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #136
Does it mean that Germany doesn't have a plan for what's coming or quite on the contrary it does but it's not to our benefit?

Would that also mean that Germany would show the World its barbaric face once again?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
27 Oct 2018  #137
Does it mean that Germany doesn't have a plan for what's coming

Why does Germany need a plan? Should the EU have problems, it's Poland and Hungary that are going to be in major trouble, not Germany.
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #138
Some People have been predicting the collapse of the EU for a decade now and yet it still exists. I am not too worried about a possible collapse anytime soon.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,015
27 Oct 2018  #139
Poles and Hungarians will probably come running for Germany as long as they can, even more so than now already, before the borders go up again and the EU-wide free movement is binned.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,817
27 Oct 2018  #140
I can't see why people don't see the demise of The EU as imminent.
It's so obviously in it`s death throes already.
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #141
I can't see why people don't see the demise of The EU as imminent.

The better question is, why do you think the EU would be likely to die?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,015
27 Oct 2018  #142
It's so obviously in it`s death throes already.

And even if, what I don't get is why it's seen as a good thing.

Especially the small sized economies will suffer. If they now grate about a felt german dominance what do you think will await them all alone by themselves. Now they sit with Germany at the same table, as equals.

Without the EU it's every country for itself again, with Germany still the most powerful economy with all the right ties and connections and again the inofficial key currency. And these smaller economies not being invited to any table and surely not as equals anymore.

Here is where nationalism becomes self destructive long term, just not smart.

And because it would be such a dumb thing I could believe in a healthy downsizing of the EU and surely the EURO zone, the cutting out of one or two failed, incompatible countries, but never a total demise.
Spike31 2 | 904
27 Oct 2018  #143
The better question is, why do you think the EU would be likely to die?

There are a few reasons for that:

>Illegal immigration to the EU encouraged by Germany in 2015 and the following actions of forcing other countries to take "their share" of illegals. Germany didn't ask anyone in the EU before making those decisions and then tried to forced the other to bend to their will with an economical blackmail

>Brexit and the British example. That's why the "core" of the EU wants to make it very hard for them to leave to discourage any other country who would like to follow Britits in the future.This may backfire right in the face of the EU, nobody likes to be bullied.

>Financial problems of the eurozone and increasing EU core [read: German] pressure on Italy

>Northstream II project which is opposed - within the EU - by Poland and Baltic countries
TheOther 5 | 3,759
27 Oct 2018  #144
I can't see why people don't see the demise of The EU as imminent.

I don't believe that the EU as a trading block is in any imminent danger. What will possibly go one day is the Schengen area, as BB correctly stated, and maybe even the Euro. The long term goal of a political union will probably have to be given up.

Here is where nationalism becomes self destructive long term, just not smart.

Good point. Very true.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,015
27 Oct 2018  #145
I don't believe that the EU as a trading block is in any imminent danger.

*nods*

Agreed! Most people discuss hotly the politics, the opinions about the common direction differ often wildly, but nobody with two braincells is seriously doubting the many advantages of the Single Market..
TheOther 5 | 3,759
27 Oct 2018  #146
It will probably depend on how well the Brits fare after BREXIT. If their economy won't take a hit as predicted, they will most likely be seen as an example and a reason for other EU members to leave. I would see that as a positive development. The EU is too big right now.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,817
27 Oct 2018  #147
Obviously I don't have two brain cells then BB.
I don't see any advantage for The UK to remain in The EU.....none at all.....
The idea of a United States of Europe is dead already,and maybe The Euro too.....it has all been such a huge failure....not for Germany....but look at what you have done to southern Europe....

@TheOther
You are spot on......if The UK makes a successful Brexit that is bad news for The EU,which is why they are trying to ensure that doesn't happen.....evil bastards....
Tacitus 2 | 864
27 Oct 2018  #148
Brexit and the British example.

Brexit will probably strengthening the EU, because it shows just how valuable the EU is. How many countries are demanding concessions for a British WTO membership again?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
27 Oct 2018  #149
.it has all been such a huge failure

For Greece, yes. For Portugal, no. Meanwhile, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia and Malta have flourished.

I don't see any advantage for The UK to remain in The EU.....none at all.....

You don't see any advantage to having almost complete free access to a trading block of around 380m people?
Miloslaw 6 | 1,817
27 Oct 2018  #150
Brexit will probably strengthening the EU, because it shows just how valuable the EU is

But it has no value.....you are just lying and cheating.....the only value of The EU is to Germany....nobody else benefits....


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