10% of the Polish population was member of the communist party. The rest arranged themselves with the system, kept quiet and went on with their lives. You are in no position whatsoever to criticize the Russians, but you know that already.
10% of the Polish population was member of the communist party.
Not quite. PZPR never had more than 3 million members, which was equivalent to roughly 8-9% of the population. Also, it wasn't exactly communist. Socialist, sure, but definitely not communist; with the possible exception of the Stalinist period (1948-1956), after which it was a very pragmatic and technocratic regime, with some communist trinkets and facade, to blend in with the rest of the Soviet bloc.
The rest arranged themselves with the system
Hm... to some extent, yes, but on the other hand throughout the entire PRL period we had revolts, protests and strikes against PZPR: 1956 - Poznań Uprising, 1968 - March Events, 1970 - Baltic Coast Protests, 1976 - Radom, Ursus, and Płock Protests, and then practically the entire 1980s, with 1980 Solidarity Movement, 1981-83 Martial Law, 1988 nationwide strikes and finally 1989 Round Table Talks and peaceful end of PZPR rule.
which was equivalent to roughly 8-9% of the population
I simply rounded up because exact numbers are not available.
Also, it wasn't exactly communist.
None of the regimes of the Warsaw Pact were communist or socialist by definition How would you describe the phase of martial law under Wojciech Jaruzelski? Just curious.
How would you describe the phase of martial law under Wojciech Jaruzelski?
I would use the term "socjalizm realny" (from Russian реальный социализм). The phrase meant, as you could guess, the socialist system that actually existed in the USSR and Eastern Europe rather than the idealized, theoretical system described by Marxist theory. It was a pragmatic, technocratic, bureaucratic regime with a centrally planned economy - quite authoritarian (and militarized during martial law), that's true - but to call it communist would be quite inaccurate. As I said before - trinkets and facade.
AFAIK even the CCCP never claimed to be communist, the mission statement of the country for decades was: We're working toward communism (until they realized that was a very dumb thing to do and rewrote their mission statement in the 1960s as: We beat the nazis! and which remains in place till today.
Poland after the early 1950s (at latest) was never very enthusiastic about the whole communism thing and didn't even seem that crazy about socialism and mostly went through the motions publicly while pursuing non-socialist things like try to encourage Polonia to visit (and leave behind dollars) and letting hoi polloi use the dollar stores (mostly unheard of in other Iron Curtain countries)
How would you describe the phase of martial law under Wojciech Jaruzelski?
Military authoritarianism... very, very bad by Polish standards though not so harsh as similar phases in Latin American countries (in some ways a better societal match than some of Poland's neighboring countries). Argentina and Chile both had similar military authoritarian phases that were much longer and much worse thatn Poland's.
The probem with communism (and even socialism) is that the closer to the theoretical model a place gets... the worse the results. China and Cambodia both made attempts to jump to pure communism and the result was absolute hell on earth.... .
Also, the state allowed certain measure of private enterprise; the famous badylarze and most of other prywaciarze still recall PRL with a bit of nostalgia (all the cinkciarze, private taxi drivers, automotive garage owners etc. - their lives were much better than those stuck in the state jobs).
As I said, realny socjalizm with just enough of private capitalism as a safety vent - it worked rather well (sort of) until 1980s when things went rapidly downhill for PZPR.
In (West) Germany they made a (quite successful) policy out of it, inclusive a party:
German social democracy is a political and economic philosophy focused on combining a capitalist market economy with strong government oversight, robust social welfare programs, and democratic governance. It is historically anchored by the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD),
It worked for many decades extremely well...but it seems there is more needed, or something just went wrong, I dunno...
The SPD is like Poland, sandwiched between two strong competitors: the CDU on one side and die Linke on the other side. As a reminder, Poland was finally liquidated for years.
authoritarian phases that were much longer and much worse thatn Poland's.
Yeas but they always could travel, and had the right to own the property, true not much of the freedom of self-expression, but a thousand times freer than than anything experienced in countries dominated by Bolsheviks. Oppression in Argentina was mostly directed towards communist sympathizers, not such a bad idea, just look at Cuba, read some and you might understand meaning of real repression. I recommend The Cuban Affair, by Nelson De Mille Excellent description of the life is todays Cuba.
It was a pragmatic, technocratic, bureaucratic regime with a centrally planned economy - quite authoritarian..
Military authoritarianism... very, very bad by Polish standards
Thanks, guys.
So could we cut the Russians living under Putin's regime some slack then? I cannot imagine that they like to live under these circumstances as was claimed earlier. Same as the Polish population a few decades earlier.
So could we cut the Russians living under Putin's regime some slack then?
Sure. Every single Russian that I knew personally was a kind-hearted, generous, and honest person. Maybe I was just lucky but still, you won't find me among those who demonize an ordinary Russian.
Every single Russian that I knew personally was a kind-hearted, generous, and honest person
True of ordinary Russians, but they did tend to smell a bit of sweat and mothballs.....still, I have nothing against ordinary Russians....just their despotic rulers.
Every single Russian that I knew personally was a kind-hearted, generous, and honest person
Kind-hearted, generous and honest people don't support invasions that lead to tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a 'brotherly' nation.
And the number of russians who can articulate any kind of opposition to said invasion approaches zero... almost all of them either support it (actively or passively) and about 90% of russian "opposition" criticizes the effectiveness of the operation and not the principles that caused it.
I don't believe that a culture full of kind-hearted, generous and honest people can produce anything like the russian system. So either they support the russian system (as an overwhelming majority seems to do) or they're weak and pathetic. I also don't like weak and pathetic people... ymmv.
Chinese in russia have no problem standing up for themselves....
