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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467    
2 Aug 2011  #241
Błasik was definitely in the cockpit. However, recordings show that he was the only one who knew the plane's correct altitude since from where he sat he had access to a barometric altimeter. The pilots probably couldn't hear him becuase of their headphones. They were reading a radio-altimeter which is far less acuurate. The conclusion is that if they had or had been able to listen to Błasik, the crash may not have happened.
southern 76 | 7,103    
2 Aug 2011  #242
I guess the pilot in polish plane was sb stubborn like Monia who decided he was right to land despite all suggestions and evidence pointing the opposite.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
2 Aug 2011  #243
Any evidence? You know, real evidence that suggests that Russians actively monitor websites, and for what purpose.

Yes, he is right, we are watching you... Every more or less interesting polish article related to Russia is translated in the same instant and becomes the part of Russian Internet humour...
Monia    
2 Aug 2011  #244
Evidently a little more than you, if you think (as you've said before) that the Polish legal system has jurisdiction overseas.

JonyM just for you, here is the law which says, how and when a foreigner, for crimes committed abroad, can be prosecuted by Polsh justice system and also you have to bear in mind all the previous rules contained in Polish Penal Code that I cited for you in my other posts.

ACT of 3 July 2002 Aviation Law.(Official Journal of 16 August 2002)

Article 8th Flight and aircraft maneuvers take place in accordance with the rules applicable within the territory, and the area of ​​non-sovereignty of any state - in accordance with international rules.

Article 9 Polish penal law shall apply to Polish citizens and foreigners who have committed abroad:
1) the offense against the law the air, referred to in art. 210-212, if:
a) the perpetrator is the owner, user or other holder or member of the Polish crew of an aircraft,
b) the perpetrator is a person who resides or carries on the business in the Polish Republic, including members of the authority of such firms, a member of a foreign aircraft or crew member of such a vessel,

c) the act was committed on the Polish aircraft or the aircraft, which the user is the person referred to in point. b)
2) the offense against the provisions referred to in art. 8, or any other offense the mandatory prosecution in accordance with international agreements ratified by the Polish Republic.

Monia said that she supported the Polish report and so do I so why am I being called a Russian for agreeing with a commission that puts the blame on both the pilots and the ATC?

. I don`t care if you are Russian . I`ve made my assumption after I read in some other post that someone called you Michało or Michaił . This I remember 100%.

Now , you sound a little bit different, than just 2 days before . Not far ago, you stated the the Polish crew is only to blame . I will not comment on your vulgar calling me .

Just read what the commission says about pilot`s intentions about landing . And you, moron Southern , read too.

Miller's Commission for a "practice approach to landing"
Sunday, July 31 (16:17)

The committee members explaining the circumstances of the crash Smolensk and Maciej Jedynak Wieslaw Wood stressed that used by them on Friday at a news conference the words "test landing approach" means that the crew performs landing approach to the minimum acceptable rules of descent.

- There was no intention of landing the crew at all costs, but only the execution approach to minimum altitude descent, and then depart for the second circle - Jedynak said in the Sunday interview with PAP.

Laski noted that the crew of TU-154M to approach minimum descent height entitle rules. - Pilots have the right to approach minimum descent height, regardless of the weather conditions prevailing at the airport in Smolensk - zaznaczył.Jedynak noted that the report committee and analytical work has shown precisely that the crew began the process of landing approach, specifying that it will continue to achieve the minimum descent height. - This is in accordance with the rules, regulations then in force flights in military aviation and it is not dangerous - he explained.

Accordingly to specified provisions of Polish Penal Code the responsibility for crimes committed abroad

by foreigher is specified in such articles :

Article 110 § 1 Polish Penal Code applies to a foreigner , who has committed abroad an offense against the interests of the Polish Republic, Polish citizen, Polish, Polish legal person or entity not having legal personality.

§ 2 Polish Penal Code applies when a foreigner commits a crime abroad other than those mentioned in § 1, if the offense is in Polish criminal law punishable by more than 2 years imprisonment and the offender is present on Polish territory, and it was decided not to spend.


Article 111 § 1 The condition of liability for an act committed abroad is the recognition of such an act a crime and by statute in force at the place of its commission.

§ 2 If there are differences between the Polish Law and the Law in force at the place of the offense, using the Polish law, the court may take into account these differences in favor of the perpetrator.

§ 3 The condition laid down in § 1 shall not apply to the Polish public official who on duty abroad where the offense committed in connection with the exercise of their functions, or to the person who committed a crime in a place not subject to any state authority.

Article 112 Notwithstanding the provisions in force at the crime scene, criminal law applies to Polish citizen and a foreigner, if committed:
1) crimes against the internal or external security of the Republic of Polish,
2) crimes against Polish offices or public officials,
3) a crime against the vital interests of the Polish economy,
4) the crime of false testimony against the Polish office.


It means that Polish state can prosecute according to Polish Law any person involved with this air crash.

Michało / Michaił

No, Polish name is Michał , Eng. Michael Russian Michail - can you see the difference ?

Well I don`t blame Russians as the only ones for making mistakes and those who were the only guilty.

However , the attitude of few posters shocks me , because they blame only Polish pilot, who was the champion , the best and most experienced on TU -154 and did not commit those errors , which they blamed him for . It is clear his intention was not to land but as it was explained in the article cited in my previous post , as the expert pointed out that

the report committee and analytical work has shown precisely that the crew began the process of landing approach, specifying that it will continue to reach a minimum height of descent. - This is in accordance with the rules, regulations then in force flights in military aviation and it is not dangerous - he explained.

JonnyM 11 | 2,622    
2 Aug 2011  #245
a foreigner, for crimes committed abroad, can be prosecuted by Polsh justice system a

So how would they make an arrest? Especially since Russia does not permit her citizens to be extradited.

In any case, there are no crimes permitted by a Russian citizen in this issue.

Well worth reading and one of the mosts sensible analyses I've seen for a long time:

Poland is still coming to terms with the Smolensk air disaster

More than a year after the death of its president, politicians have failed to heal the serious divisions plaguing the country

Last week, the Polish government finally released a report into the 2010 plane catastrophe, which killed President Lech Kaczyński and 95 others. It blames the accident mainly on the poor training of the pilots, and has since triggered the resignation of the Polish defence minister. Is that the end of the issue? Not a chance.

The debate regarding the Smolensk catastrophe long ago stopped revolving around the 96 people who lost their lives that day and the circumstances in which it occurred. Rather, the tragic event sparked off sociopolitical reactions, which have exposed and enhanced the deep cultural divisions existing within Polish society.

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/02/poland-smolensk-air-disaster
f stop 25 | 2,514    
2 Aug 2011  #246
Polish pilot, who was the champion, the best and most experienced on TU -154 and did not commit those errors , which they blamed him for . It is clear his intention was not to land

Now here is the indisputable evidence that having this discussion here is a useless exercise in futility.
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #247
Jonny, from your paragraph you copied from Guardian news column, someone mentioned a youtube video about a man who took a video just after the incident. Probably, many of you already know it. Here it is: ...

I found the video interesting. Since I didn't know Polish/Russian, I read their comments of people under this youtube video there and when I read this comment below in italic, I found the video more interesting. Maybe, Poles here can confirm?

megamakin says there on comment page 3:
Did you ever heard when people from Poland talking in their language? Did you? I think you didnt. All voice what you can heard on this video, is with russian accent.

But something strange is in 00:54, there we can heard a polish word: "żyje". "I live".

This moment is strange and scary. I don't know what i think about that. This one word is with Polish accent, propably this is polish voice.

JonnyM 11 | 2,622    
2 Aug 2011  #248
But something strange is

And falsified.
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #249
falsified by who? JonnyM, do you know Polish and/or Russian?

(why do you not let Poles here answer to this comment on youtube? There is a claim by an average Joiski that says "people speak polish there with russian accent - except one that says - i live.." )
Wroclaw 44 | 5,389    
2 Aug 2011  #250
I found the video interesting. Since I didn't know Polish/Russian, I read their comments of people under this youtube video there and when I read this comment below in italic, I found the video more interesting. Maybe, Poles here can confirm?

please don't take the discussion in this direction. we already have threads full of it.
JonnyM 11 | 2,622    
2 Aug 2011  #251
do you know Polish

Yes. Very well. But the issue is the Polish report which makes it very clear what happened. Though somehere are determined to dispute it, saying white is black and black is white. Really it is an insult to the people who died in that accident.
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #252
please don't take the discussion in this direction. we already have threads full of it.

which direction shall i go? focusing on the final report only?

(my point/question with this video was about their opinions of Poles, rather than someones else, as Poles know Polish better than everybody here who have been discussing things here. Anyway, it was only a question that wouldn't lead to more discussions at all. What did Poles here on the forum say about these talks in the video?)

Yes. (I know Polish) Very well.

as much as you can understand the difference between the accents?
(understanding accent differences isn't so easy unless you are local. And, Jonny, you aren't local, but, a British.)
Wroclaw 44 | 5,389    
2 Aug 2011  #253
focusing on the final report only?

that is the topic of the thread
pgtx 29 | 3,160    
2 Aug 2011  #254
What did Poles here on the forum say about these talks in the video?)

there are 17 threads about Smoleńsk. please, check them out.
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #255
that is the topic of the thread

JonnyM's copied post from Guardian.co.uk above summarized the analysis well. I sign & stamp it.. We are expected to sign & stamp the report too? If we do this, we are above the prime ministers, presidents, etc.. Maybe, that's why Poland defence minister resigned after this report. Also, I thought people like Monia here are saying that the report is false, not enough, etc.
Sasha 2 | 1,083    
2 Aug 2011  #256
Madatnet, after watching the video I can tell you that:

- I haven't heard a single word in Polish;
- I haven't heard anything but a siren at 0.54
- the audio track seems to be laid upon the video
- the video doesn't contain any evidence of shooting or the like
- you must get a grip on reality
Monia    
2 Aug 2011  #257
Delph , Sasha - You may feel hurt by my abrupt comment , that I don`t care about if you are Russians . I was a bit angry after reading your posts . But I would like to emphasize , that I have nothing against Russian people or any other nationality. I wish everybody had the same attitude like me.

Skysoulmate - I think you can`t depreciate other people for their views, just because you are a pilot. Good for you, but you are not an expert for me. You are also a civil pilot. This particular subject is more multilayered than just a simple civil flight. I bet you have never been TU - 154 pilot. My Dad’s fiends were (in LOT). He was talking with his friends about this crash too. You perceive me as a “ moron “ , who posts here on exclusively the men’s subject. Why would any woman do that, so shocking , isn`t it ? It happens that I am not much interested in sublects like - what the color of nail varnish should I choose for today.

I post here because I am personally interested in this subject and I have got more knowledge than you might expect from an average woman. Just happens that my father was an air force pilot and the commander of the air force base. He used to fly on MIG 21, among other types. . So, I have got an expert to give me some expert’s information at any time I want..

Convex , you are saying that your hobby is aviation , well I have to answer that my whole life was linked to aviation . I also have discussed with my father about the level of training of young pilots these days. He admits it has worsened since he was an instructor. I also know that some proceedings should be improved as you said, and I know that few heads would be fired just for show up to the public. That`s the most convenient way and I think we will never know the truth .My Dad is very skeptical if it comes to the state of current training of pilots , not enough flight hours . My father also says it is outrages that pilots have as little flights hours as he had in just one year . The lack of money is the main issue .Every military pilot according to previous plans in 2010 was to spend in the air over 40 hours. The document shows that over 11 thousand tons of aviation fuel and 75 tons of aviation gasoline is missing . My Dad during his peak Career spent the 3500 hours in the air. But because of the fact, that I was raised in such environment and because of my profession I am not a fanatical woman , who takes part in this discussion, otherwise I would post in other sections of PF like “why do Polki dye their hair black? “
JonnyM 11 | 2,622    
2 Aug 2011  #258
NN: as much as you can understand the difference between the accents?

Yes, no problem. Anyone who speaks Polish knows the difference between a Polish and Russian accent. It's clear from the moment they speak. Though that particular video is dodgy to say the least.

understanding accent differences isn't so easy unless you are local.

It is easy.

NN: And, Jonny, you aren't local, but, a British.

Your point is?

NN: JonnyM's copied post from Guardian.co.uk above summarized the analysis well. I sign & stamp it..

The Guardian is notorious for getting the wrong end of the stick, but that assessment of the situation is one of the most perceptive articles about Poland in the foreign press.

Sasha: Madatnet, after watching the video I can tell you that:

- I haven't heard a single word in Polish;
- I haven't heard anything but a siren at 0.54
- the audio track seems to be laid upon the video
- the video doesn't contain any evidence of shooting or the like
- you must get a grip on reality

Exactly!
delphiandomine 85 | 17,704    
2 Aug 2011  #259
My Dad is very skeptical if it comes to the state of current training of pilots , not enough flight hours . My father also says it is outrages that pilots have as little flights hours as he had in just one year . The lack of money is the main issue

Yep. It's a huge problem with the Air Force - the report makes this so clear. The training simply isn't good enough - Sky mentioned the reaction to "pull up, pull up" - why didn't they have it?

Personally - I wouldn't be pointing the finger at the Russians, but rather at the Defence Ministry. I thought from the beginning, and still think, that the opposition should have focused on the incompetence of the Ministry rather than crosses, Russians and conspiracies. There's absolutely no doubt that heads must go in the Air Force - but with the reports coming out of Afghanistan, it seems that the Army isn't fit to do the job as well.

If you ask me, the one failing in the report is that it didn't do a good enough job of digging into the culture of the Air Force that allowed this to happen.
Sasha 2 | 1,083    
2 Aug 2011  #260
I was a bit angry after reading your posts

#271? dlachego, pani? :)
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #261
Sasha says: "I haven't heard anything but a siren at 0.54"

There are some human sounds/voices there at 00:50-00:52
(a Pole say same thing in his comments under youtube, in his native Polish as well.)

With a noise filter, it can be decipherable easily. (he says it is a polish sentence.)

---

Anyway. If we back to the report, one of main blames, perhaps most highlighted one, is poor pilot training.. as Monia just mentioned above and Delphiandomine approved/agreed well.. which I too agree. (then, it is not accident, it is a suicide..)
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
2 Aug 2011  #262
The Russian side omitted key parts of the transcripts according to reports. The government there really functions as a self-interested unit as opposed to the people who are capable of looking outwards.

As for 'that' video posted, shots can be heard. There was also a video where the witness came forward and his interview was translated. He saw men in the forest and heard the shots, hence the words 'nie ch*j ja sybie' (Polish phonetics). I think it is one of those red herrings that spring up.
Monia    
2 Aug 2011  #263
I am reading now " Wprost " weekly magazine ( this week`s edition ) . There is a lot of comments about the crash . It is interesting that there were two conferences of the commission : one for families of victims and another for journalists . Interestingly, at a conference for journalists thepilot and the crew was blamed but at a conference for families, the blame was put on Russian controllers and the airport conditions .

During this conference for famlies one of the commission members even admitted that "it was not the fault of our pilot, because he had a tower in order to correct his flight ".

So , he said exactly the same , what I wrote here in one of my previous posts , after reading the report, myself . so my assumptions were confirmed by the Polish expert.

There will be more to come as I see it right now . There could be even more to come, when the investigation which is led by the military prosecutor will end .
southern 76 | 7,103    
2 Aug 2011  #264
Usually for an accident to happen there must be lots of bad coincidencies.In this case we can attribute everything to the harsh russian weather which stopped Hitler and Napoleon as well.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034    
2 Aug 2011  #265
wbj.pl/article-55539-russian-response-to-smolensk-report-on ly-the-poles-were-at-fault.html

Well no surprise that MAK has rejected any part of the Polish Report that puts the Russians at fault.

Basically there are too many things mentioned in MAK that former pilots and other experts in this subject have said are wrong. I have watched it now on various Polish television news channels. I rightfully did not trust the Russian side from the start and was right to do so. PO was wrong to do so. We had an original Russian report that was putting all blame on the Polish side. We had a pathetic responce that also put most of the blame on Poland although they did mentioned that the Russian side also made mistakes. Despite the ass kissing from PO the Russians have dismissed the parts of the Polish report that put any blame on them

The Russian airport was apparently totally ready and had nothing wrong with it. Yeah sure because Russia can do no wrong. I suppose the recent airplane crashing or the 'Bulgaria' ship also had nothing to do with bad organisation.

Side Note - So that you know I am not against Russian citizens I am against the Russian goverment, I was against them and I am probably always going to be if they continue to be led by the Russian KGB criminals who run it.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
2 Aug 2011  #266
I hate to say it but denial seems to be a prevalent trait amongst quite a few Slavs. I can't really trust either side to conduct a fair investigation in the light of that. Mud slinging is too visible and not accepting blame appears to be common to both sides.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034    
2 Aug 2011  #267
You have to admit it is more the Russian side that do not want to accept blame here. I mean if you have a look at the report from Poland, that I am not sure I agree with but forget that for now, it basically puts the majority of the blame on to the Polish side. The Russians on the other hand still seem to be annoyed that there are comments made as to the airport being of a poor standard etc.
Seanus 15 | 19,716    
2 Aug 2011  #268
It is more the Russian side in this case, yes. They should be ashamed of themselves with such a shabby airport. Soldiers on the runway at the time of approach. What's that all about? Fiddling with the bulbs. What a bunch of sneaky sods. How are the blind led? By themselves or by a guide dog? I don't get delph's analogy with the car and the passenger. It's not as relevant as the blind dog analogy. They had a duty of care to guide them in better, esp in light of the conditions.
Ironside 47 | 9,523    
2 Aug 2011  #269
Aviation is my hobby, sky is a professional pilot, and delph is an FSB agent.

Aviation is my hobby too (beginner :)), sky didn't investigate the Smolensk Crash and edit.
Neither of us is an expert, and simple true is that is that all evidence was in Russian hands and could have tampered with.
I think that is almost impossible to find out who or what was responsible.
Anyone one who is making presumption is not wise.
Maybe pilots are responsible maybe not, maybe it was an accident and then maybe not - thats all who any sentient being can say on the issue.

delph is just making monkey out of himself and I simply wonder what his issue is..? and some others to lesser degree ....

The big discussion back then was the CASA that went down at Miroslawiec. No lessons learned out of that tragic accident is just inexcusable. I'm not alone in my thinking on that... all the usual excuses came up, no time, no money, the problem has already been dealt with by firing a couple of guys.

that is a separate issue...

I hope you don't include me in your assertion. I've said all along that all sides made mistakes BUT as always it is the captain or the commander who's in charge of the flight. T

No, read posts and you can find for yourself who is intense .....no sky, I didn't think about it.
NomadatNet 1 | 457    
2 Aug 2011  #270
This is interesting even though their approaches of Polish officials in commision can be understandable.. (only reason I can think of why they talked different to families is that they might have difficulty to say their lost ones' faults.) On the other hand, their talking different to journalists can be considered as "blaming russians totally even by words in open media may lead to a war that won't be good for Poland as it can be food by the powers." Poland's officials can speak so, normal, understandable.. However, speaking different to families and journalists and everybody knowing that means, for us ordinary people, somethings strange and this is known by those officials too even if they are on Russian side or not..


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