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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


Crow 137 | 7,595
27 Nov 2015  #691
It's a model of Balkanesque nationalism*

please, spare people here of such a usual phrases invented in order to mask necessity to patronize and control region.

why don`t you just say Croatia? why speaking in general about Balkan? Then also, neither Croatia, neither Serbia aren`t exclusively Balkan countries but also Central European and Eastern European and even South-East European.

Then, if you speak in particular about Croatia, form of nationalist there pull its strength from anti-Slavic Nazi pro-Germanic ideology. See, that ideology was not invented on Balkan or on the East of Europe. It was invented on the west of Europe.

Albania is Balkan country. But even there rule ideology (Neo-Ottomanism) invented in Turkey, in Anatolia. Plus, there are elements of Wahhabi Islam, same as in Bosnia. That ideology is again created outside of the region, as we all know.

When speak, let us be precise. That`s what i suggests.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
27 Nov 2015  #692
It's a retreat to childhood safety and avoidance of judgement.

I think its lack a significant amount of value even as a scientific theory as a tool to describe reality is simply useless as it fits most of the countries of the world. Everyone sees itself as wronged victims or forced to action by a hostile world.

Any harm done by the nation is not its fault and any harm done to the nation is definitely the fault of malevolent actors
In the ancient Rome that was a standard way of describing war waged in the name of the Roman people.

I don't see any particular relation of your revelations to PiS other that they assert that Poland needs to defend her interest and that is true.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
27 Nov 2015  #693
That ideology is again created outside of the region

Quick Crow. Name three things that the Serbian state has done that have harmed other peoples. Name an instance where a Serbian government did something that hurt non-Serbians and that you regret.

Everyone sees itself as wronged victims or forced to action by a hostile world.

I don't. America doens't (historically at any rate, if anything quite the opposite).
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
27 Nov 2015  #694
I don't see any particular relation of your revelations to PiS other that they assert that Poland needs to defend her interest and that is true.

If that was true, why would they appoint a 20 year old boy in a senior position in the Ministry of Defence?

I'd want experienced old hands in the job that spoke Russian, English and German fluently and who had a military background, not some friend of Duda's daughter.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
27 Nov 2015  #695
other that they assert that Poland needs to defend her interest and that is true

Of course. Job number one of any government is to look out after the interests of its citizens first (legal residents next and anyone else after that).

I just think that subverting the rule of law and the endless witch hunt for enemies in our midst is not a very productive way of doing that and I've yet to see any evidence that PiS is capable of anything else. It's dependence on a pathological personality like Macierewicz kind of indicates that.
Ironside 48 | 9,721
27 Nov 2015  #696
If that was true, why would they appoint a 20 year old boy in a senior position in the Ministry of Defence?

He must have some quality or other. Macierwicz is a very original character and very difficult to understand for foreigners, I can tell you he is a very intelligent man without any sign of often suggested mental instability.

English

That kid must be fluent in English being a student at Rutgers University or so they say. After all adviser to minister is not a senior position and one could argue choosing an advisor is prerogative of that dude in charge.

It's dependence on a pathological personality like Macierewicz kind of indicates that.

Pathological? Could you explain what do you mean by that?
smurf 39 | 1,982
27 Nov 2015  #697
Name three specific laws that were broken and say who broke them

I would also like Ironside to give the laws he's talking about

It's easy to retreat into the warm security of victimhood where only other actors need be held accountable.

Hard not to agree with everything said here.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
27 Nov 2015  #698
Macierwicz is a very original character and very difficult to understand for foreigners

Which is why he's appointed to a position where he has to deal a lot with foreigners? I fail to grasp the logic....
smurf 39 | 1,982
27 Nov 2015  #699
Which is why he's appointed to a position where he has to deal a lot with foreigners?

LOL

You couldn't make it up eh!
Ironside 48 | 9,721
27 Nov 2015  #700
don't. America doens't (historically at any rate, if anything quite the opposite).

Really? What was American Revolution about then? They believed to be pampered too much by the King and had enough?
Wasn't 9/11 a case were Americans felt wronged by the big hostile jealous world?

Which is why he's appointed to a position where he has to deal a lot with foreigners?

A lot? Anyway they don't have to understand him, it is not required in this job, he is there to take care of Polish interests.
mafketis 20 | 7,182
27 Nov 2015  #701
What was American Revolution about then?

No taxation without representation (American version of nic o nas bez nas)

Wasn't 9/11 a case were Americans felt wronged by the big hostile jealous world?

You'd be surprised at how many Americans blame the US for that (and later troubles). I don't, but the basic principle is that countries sometimes victimize people and are sometimes victimized. Infantile nationalists don't realize there countries ever have done (or could have done) wrong.

A lot?

Well I was just at MON's site and the front page has two pictures of him with foreign dignitaries....
weg05
11 Apr 2017  #702
<random edit>does nothing for
FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL

Quite whom it thinks it is fooling, other than itself, is anyone's guess. But its gross attempt to shirk responsibility, no less disgraceful and unconvincing as
..., amounts to cowardice on a monumental level which does nothing, in the least, for the cause of air safety.

flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-polish-tu-154-obsession-does-nothing-for-ai-435999/

Article pokes fun at pathetic Polish Government obsession with its rubbish theories.

Articled edited to remove meaning, context and commonsense but fit within the mighty word limit.
Crow 137 | 7,595
11 Apr 2017  #703
Tusk survived. A bird from EU and NATO gave him advice to stay far from Lech. Its good to have friends with birds. Tusk is favorite. Lech wasn`t loved. Lech criticized EU, NATO and tusk at UN GA. Lech didn`t fit.
jon357 63 | 14,122
11 Apr 2017  #704
Article pokes fun at pathetic Polish Government obsession with its rubbish theories

They know it's a distraction from all the other things they don't want to see dominating the headlines.
Crow 137 | 7,595
11 Apr 2017  #705
True. Quite enough of problems bringing NATO and EU membership. So, if EU/NATO can help by assassinating Polish president it can always help, divert attention from real thing. Clever.

But f***, we have internet in our time. Plus, Serbians follow their business and that include peace between Poland and Russia. It suits us. It just suits us.
OP pawian 159 | 9,553
23 Mar 2019  #706
They know it's a distraction from all the other things they don't want to see dominating the headlines.

It seems the whole Smoleńsk business has been hushed up by PiS government. Despite foreign aid, they haven`t found any evidence for explosion on board the plane. The inquiry commission set up by PiS a few years ago is practically out of work now, although they still get high salaries.

One funny thing. PiS, when in opposition, furiously attacked the former government for their procrastination with retrieving the plane wreckage from Russian authorities. PiS promised they would deal with it successfully, After 4 years, the situation hasn`t changed. Liars, aren`t they? :)
Miloslaw 6 | 2,046
23 Mar 2019  #707
People who know the history between Poland and Russia are well aware of what actually happened.
OP pawian 159 | 9,553
23 Mar 2019  #708
What exactly? Do you know more that the PiS inquiry commission? :)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
23 Mar 2019  #709
People who know the history between Poland and Russia are well aware of what actually happened.

A huge catalogue of failures on the Polish side, accompanied by some failures on the Russian side that could have prevented it. There's no smoking gun, just gross incompetence and negligence on the part of the Russian military, Lech Kaczyński's chancellery and the Polish Ministry of Defence.

Are you familiar with this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Polish_Air_Force_C-295_Miros%C5%82awiec_crash - it was very similar.
OP pawian 159 | 9,553
24 Mar 2019  #710
People who know the history between Poland and Russia are well aware of what actually happened.

Do you mean that article which is going to appear in tomorrow`s issue of rightist magazine "Sieci" They are suggesting that a panel of British experts from Forensic Explosives Laboratory has found multiple traces of TNT on the wreckage samples.

tvp.info/41887325/brytyjczycy-zbadali-szczatki-wraku-tupolewa-na-wiekszosci-trotyl
Miloslaw 6 | 2,046
24 Mar 2019  #711
We all know how Russians try to deal with potentially subversive people.....

news.sky.com/story/smolensk-crash-explosions-on-board-before-plane-hit-ground-investigator-says-11233792
antheads 13 | 327
12 Apr 2019  #712
Well the tide is finally turning, and the the 'conspiracy' theory is being proven true, with more and mroe serious media starting to take it seriously. Love how it makes years of postings by delph and jon making them look like deluded fools

"Given Taylor's status as a respected air crash investigator, the Smolensk disaster needs thorough reinvestigation by experienced third parties, neither Polish nor Russian. In truth, Western intelligence has had grave doubts about the "official" version of Smolensk from the outset. A senior Polish security official bluntly informed me, "Of course Warsaw knew the truth," meaning the previous government sought to keep peace with Putin " observer.com/2018/05/evidence-shows-russia-had-role-in-smolensk-crash-killed-kaczynski/
jon357 63 | 14,122
12 Apr 2019  #713
That foreign article changes nothing. Zero. It's just a rehashing of old conspiracy theories

A senior Polish security official bluntly informed me,

Makes all the difference. Not.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Apr 2019  #714
What are you on about? No-one is taking it seriously, not even within PiS. The polls consistently show that only around half of PiS voters believe in the fairytale, and after 3.5 years, they haven't produced a single piece of evidence to support the claims.

By the way, Taylor is not a respected air crash investigator. He's never worked formally at the AAIB despite his claims in Poland, and actually, he's mostly known for causing a lot of trouble in Italy with his false claims about a disaster there.

But you know, I suppose you know better than the highly experienced commission that investigated the Smolensk disaster.

Makes all the difference. Not.

Worth reading: natemat.pl/238473,kim-jest-john-schindler-obronca-macierewicza-zaslynal-zdjeciem-penisa

It turns out that this guy was sending stuff about his penis to people on Twitter, and was suspended from his job as a result. Hardly credible.
antheads 13 | 327
12 Apr 2019  #715
So how will you attempt to smear the UK Defence Science and Technology Laboratory's Forensic Explosives Laboratory then ? They are very clear on explosives traces being on the aircraft, specifically the wing that sheared off, not perfumes etc. PiS stooges as well? The evidence is clear from a multitude of experts. However the russian apologists on this forum continue in their rabid defence play, paid PO shills?
mafketis 20 | 7,182
12 Apr 2019  #716
Well the tide is finally turning, and the the 'conspiracy' theory is being proven true

Your evidence is an article that's almost a year old? On the 10th Macierewicz said some stuff and no one, not even JK paid any attention. They've ridden that horse as far as it would run and are saddling up a new one to keep their low information base in line...
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Apr 2019  #717
You do realise that the laboratory has said nothing on the record, and that no proof of the claims made in the PiS-controlled media has actually been produced? If you want to discuss facts, then you need to rely on something more than a claim made in a government-controlled rag.

The other important thing: you do realise that this was a military plane, used for military purposes. The military also uses explosives. Hmm...how strange.
antheads 13 | 327
12 Apr 2019  #718
If they flew to smolensk in the back of a hercules or antonov then your point might be less ludicrous. This was a civilian airplane tasked for transporting the heads of the goverment, not running bomb deliveries. The report from the Forensic lab will be published shortly, how will you try to deflect from the truth then?
mafketis 20 | 7,182
12 Apr 2019  #719
The report from the Forensic lab will be published

I'm not going to hold my breath....
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Apr 2019  #720
Just for fun: sejm.gov.pl/Sejm8.nsf/InterpelacjaTresc.xsp?key=07B60E44&view=null

As of last January, after over 2 years, Macierewicz's sub-commission had completely failed to provide any sort of findings to the National Prosecutor's Office.

But seeing as antheads is here is so knowledgeable, perhaps he can acquaint himself with the actual findings. It transpires that the UK laboratory found only "substances used to produce these materials" according to Macierewicz's own sub-commission, and Macierewicz took it upon himself to change it to "explosives" despite that not being the case.

wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114883,24635583,znikajacy-raport-podkomisji-smolenskiej-a-w-nim-nowa-wersja.html

This was a civilian airplane tasked for transporting the heads of the goverment, not running bomb deliveries.

Except it was operated by the military. The 32nd Special Air Regiment was part of the Air Force, under the Ministry of Defence. It wasn't a civilian plane at all.

If you get even basic details wrong, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

he report from the Forensic lab will be published shortly

We've been hearing "published shortly" for 3.5 years now.


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