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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


gumishu 13 | 6,138
7 Apr 2012 #421
1. He knew too much about Russian intelligence.

what the hell the Russians need and use that intelligence for that they need people to be killed - do you not see that if what you state is true Russia is not a normal civilized country one can have a proper relations with???
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
7 Apr 2012 #422
do you not see that if what you state is true Russia is not a normal civilized country one can have a proper relations with???

Russia is a civilised country which created culture known for a lot of masterpieces.

What Americans are doing with terrorists in Guantanamo or Pakistan (assassinating Osama) isn`t too civilised, either, yet many countries have good diplomatic relations with America.

Come on, gumi, stop speaking like a child.
gumishu 13 | 6,138
7 Apr 2012 #423
Shortly after the crash, a certain fellow was invited onto a panel of "experts" hosted by my Father-In-Law to discuss these matters.

you definitely can't read Polish jason because you would a couple of times question in your mind the version of the situation your father in law has presented you with (the story told by the Rybitzky guy is very different to what your FIL told you)

What Americans are doing with terrorists in Guantanamo

AFAIK they are not killing anybody in Guantanamo - neither they tear their fingernails away or burn away their testicles with high intensity current - so it hardly compares - definitely not with Chechnia war

with America some standards are upheld - they have openly chased and killed bin Laden

quote=pawian]Don`t be a child. Russia isn`t worse than USA and the USA isn`t any better than Russia. [/quote]

are you serious? are you sure it's the same thing to border with Russia and to border with the US?? which country would you personally want to border with?

now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act - what would you do then (if you have prove enough to believe it) - just forget it and move on? shut up for the sake of 'good relations'?

I don't say it was a Russian made thing - I don't know that - but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage) - should we stop asking questions and stop attempts to discover what actually happened - because there already have been a lot of lies told by the Russians themselves and by some circles in Poland that it begs to dig further for the truth because it seems quite sure to me we don't know the truth at the moment

As a Pole or Mexican? :):):)

To the best of my knowledge, USA conquered much more Mexican lands in history than Russia stole from Poland.
:):):):)

oh, pal - are you sure Mexicans complain about the neighbourhood of the USA? or quite contrary? also do those Mexicans whose ancestors were conquered by the US long to be united with their 'motherland' or quite contrary - if you don't see that the US is much more a country of freedom than Russia then you should buy good glasses
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
7 Apr 2012 #424
but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage) -

You should have a bit bigger knowledge of the world. The treatment of the Polish plane wreckage is not worse than it happens in the world. It is the same and it seems a regular procedure. We can complain or protest but nothing can be done about it now.

The remaining wreckage of the Boeing jumbo jet is stored about a mile from Tattershall, Lincolnshire, at Roger Windley's scrapyard, pending the conclusion of the American victims' civil case. (53°7′19.35″N 0°12′58.09″W)[156] The remains include the nose section of the Boeing 747, which is largely intact but was cut into several pieces to assist in removal from Tundergarth Hill.

19 years on and Lockerbie plane debris is rotting away in a scrapyard
This mass of twisted metal is the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 ? still lying abandoned in a scrapyard.
Quite why it is there, 19 years after the atrocity, is shrouded in mystery.
The remains, hidden away in rural Lincolnshire, include the twisted nose section of the Boeing 747 that became the most haunting image of the bombing.


dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490284/19-years-Lockerbie-plane-debris-rotting-away-scrapyard.html

I can say, the treatment is not so bad, compared to this:

GREEDY GHOUL OF LOCKERBIE
20 years to day after horror on Pan Am Flt 103 we nail creep flogging wreckage for £450 If there's a few hundred in it for me I'll sell cockpit gear It's a bit naughty. But I can offer you the emergency exit

Mangled wreckage from the Lockerbie outrage is being sold as sick memorabilia by one of the men who recovered it, The People can reveal.
The remains of Pan Am Flight 103 - blown out of the sky by a terrorist bomb 20 years ago today killing 270 - are being flogged off by greedy ghoul Simon Windley.

Callous Windley, 51, whose dad's scrap firm got the contract to recover the tragic debris and store it, is happy to sell sections of the shattered Boeing 747.

Boss Roger Windley, 74, who is unaware of his son's gruesome trade, is forbidden from disposing of the wreckage until the files on Britain's worst terrorist attack are closed.

But when a People undercover investigator approached Simon Windley last week he had no qualms about pocketing...
£250 for cockpit controls, a battered emergency door and a toilet.
£50 for a 4ft shard of the tailplane in blue-and-white Pan Am livery and two lifejackets.
£50 for a photo of the inside of the cockpit where the pilots died.
£100 for parts of two other nasty air crashes.
Afterwards Windley said casually: "If you want any more parts I am prepared to help you, for a fee obviously."
Relatives of the Lockerbie victims will be appalled - while police and air crash investigators will be alarmed that wreckage which could be vital in any new criminal investigation is disappearing.

Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora, 24, died in the atrocity, yesterday branded Windley as "sick".
After a tip-off, a People investigator posing as a dealer acting on behalf of a collector approached Windley on Wednesday at his father's huge scrapyard at Tattershall near Boston, Lincs.

The firm specialises in salvaging air crashes and was hired by insurance giant Lloyds to retrieve the wreckage scattered for miles around the Scottish townof Lockerbie on that horrific night in 1988.

Windley, fitting out a caravanette next to a fenced-off zone holding the 325 tons of twisted Boeing metal, beckoned our man inside his workshop and whispered: "Give me your phone number. How big a bit do you want?"

He said he could not let our man take anything away as there were cameras around the yard. Instead he arranged for us to rendezvous with him away from the yard next day. He grinned: "If there's a couple of hundred quid I will get you something. It might be one or two little things."

When our investigator asked if he could find a piece with Pan Am on it, or something to identify it as the Lockerbie jet, he said: "That would be a bit naughty."

And he warned: "And it hasn't come from me. Say you found it in woods near to the crash site."
On Thursday, he sent a text saying: "Will a toilet and something else do. If so I will want £250."


people.co.uk/archive/other/2008/12/21/greedy-ghoul-of-lockerbie-93463-20987086/
f stop 25 | 2,503
7 Apr 2012 #425
but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage)

unless one is intimate with that process, one should not speculate.
The press is the biggest ghoul.
Ironside 53 | 12,407
7 Apr 2012 #426
The only thing that can be said at this stage is that it wasn't final Polish report on Smolensk air-crash.
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
12 Apr 2012 #427
now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act -

Latest poll:

Terrorist act?:

Definitely not - 36%

Rather not - 30%

Rather yes - 11%

Definitely yes - 10%

Hard to say - 13%

55% Poles believe that Russians are trying to hide important information
jon357 74 | 22,042
13 Apr 2012 #428
now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act

This is the problem. People 'imagine' a bit too much without going straight to the bottom line. The Russian government had no reason whatsoever to cause a plane crash. Nor did anybody else.
Ironside 53 | 12,407
13 Apr 2012 #429
I think you are a bit out of touch!
jon357 74 | 22,042
13 Apr 2012 #430
The day I take notice of even one word that Antoni Macierewicz comes up with will be a bloody cold one. The man is paranoid and unstable in every sense. It still seems like yesterday that he handcuffed himself to the Marszalek's chair then went on a hunger strike locked in his office. With of course a TV crew present.

Over the Smolensk issue, I'm surprised he doesn't hire a jester's outfit and lie down across the threshold of the sejm.
jasondmzk
13 Apr 2012 #431
This is the worst thing to come from the crash, either politically or socially. Mind, this actually hangs in a church.



f stop 25 | 2,503
13 Apr 2012 #432
where are the old, bold, ugly people?
jon357 74 | 22,042
13 Apr 2012 #433
This is the worst thing to come from the crash, either politically or socially. Mind, this actually hangs in a church.

That is truly vile. Whoever allowed that in a church wants their bottom smacking.

where are the old, bold, ugly people?

Indeed. The picture looks more like a fart in a disco.
Ironside 53 | 12,407
13 Apr 2012 #434
Mind, this actually hangs in a church.

Isn't ? What a bad taste have to do with the crash?
WielkiPolak 56 | 1,007
13 Apr 2012 #435
It's amazing. In a world where generally speaking, unless a person is trying to sabotage their own nation [and there are actually a few leaders like this], most leaders tend to fight for their countries. In Poland, it seems every time the crash is mentioned it causes a shiver up PO politicians spines. They would rather just admit it was the fault of their own country and move on as quick as possible.

By the way, anyone remember the Barbara Blida case? You know, when she took a gun and shot herself. How long was that ranted about in the sejm? The SLD politicians spent ages 'investigating' [or trying to prove that PiS was somehow at fault for her shooting herself] this case. It was talked about for a very long time. In the end, after a long while, they could not find any proof and it was dropped. When the same is trying to be done here, a proper investigation, it gets shut down as being complete madness.
f stop 25 | 2,503
13 Apr 2012 #436
The picture looks more like a fart in a disco.

It shouldn't be, but that was funny.
And the hearts, popping out of black holes in chests? You see the twins, in blue?
That is just so bad, it is embarrassing.
Ironside 53 | 12,407
14 Apr 2012 #437
The picture looks more like a fart in a disco.

Speaking about a bad taste !
WielkiPolak 56 | 1,007
17 Apr 2012 #438
People should stop poking fun at a man for trying to get to the bottom of a tragedy that is still unresolved [it is not resolved because Russian and the Polish government say it is].

For a long time members of PiS did not openly say it was a planned attack. After a while though, with no detailed investigation and a look at the suspicious behaviour of the Russians on a number of issues, they are implying that it looks to be likely that it was murder, key being likely, not definite, but probable.

Oh by the way recently an Italians football player died on the pitch. There is a full investigation being conducted in to his death. It is standard procedure to investigate a death.

The Russians pushing experts away, not allowing them to look in to this is very suspicious to me. Is it not to you? It surprises me more people not complaining about the treatment by the Russians.
smurf 39 | 1,969
17 Apr 2012 #439
that is still unresolved

It's resolved, read the reports.
Get over it.

Jarek is a troll of the highest calibre. A man who had led his party to 6 consecutive election defeats. He will grab at any and all straws to hang onto his position.

Which is good when you consider that now that Poland has both PO and Palikot for the younger more intelligent voter it means less votes for mentaller Jarek and his blind followers.
Ironside 53 | 12,407
17 Apr 2012 #440
Which is good when you consider that now that Poland has both PO and Palikot for the younger more intelligent voter

Go back to our booze, politics is not your forte !
WielkiPolak 56 | 1,007
21 Apr 2012 #441
now that Poland has both PO and Palikot for the younger more intelligent voter

An early candidate for the most idiotic political post of the year.
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
24 Apr 2012 #442
I don't say it was a Russian made thing - I don't know that - but a lot of things seem very suspicious

Polish experts excluded the possibility of any man-made explosions on the plane. They had a full access to the wreckage and examined it with professional equipment.

Kaczyński`s American professors didn`t run such examinations. Their suppositions about explosions which tore off the wing, blew up the fuselage and scattered the debris all over the place are rubbish.

I wonder how long it took PiS to find such "experts" who would agree to support the manic thesis about the terrorist attack.

What do you think? A month? Two? Three?

The cause is and has always been one: the plane was flying too low, hit the tree and crashed. Conspiracy theories are food for thought for simpletons.
jon357 74 | 22,042
24 Apr 2012 #443
An early candidate for the most idiotic political post of the year.

Really? Check out who votes for Ruch Palikota and where they poll the most.

Polish experts excluded the possibility of any man-made explosions on the plane. They had a full access to the wreckage and examined it with professional equipment.

Exactly. The matter was sad but straightforward, however conspiracy theories get those attention-seeking buffoons Kaczynski and Macierewicz the airtime they crave.
boletus 30 | 1,361
24 Apr 2012 #444
His excellency Jarosław Kaczyński, a brilliant logician, outstanding dialectician, strategist, philosopher and a founder of the axiom, "White is White" ("No screams convince us that white is white, and black is black") recently decided to join the engineering world of experts in the field of air traffic accidents, air disasters and sinister in-flight attacks.

He claims that the planes that struck the towers of the World Trade Center, flew through the buildings intact, without loosing their wings.
- Did you see the planes passing through that building, through the corner of that building? Yet their wings did not fall off.
- So if the walls of the building did not damage the plane structure, how is it possible for the birch tree to destroy the wing of the landing Tupolev?

Recently we had an example that the plane in Siberia mow the forest, and nobody nothing happened . And yet here we have these chips , fractions , fragments, and all died . This situation is characteristic of the explosion - explained Jaroslaw Kaczynski during a meeting with residents Sieradza .

According to the President of Law and Justice , this example shows that the Smolensk catastrophe could be really fell swoop . Another argument were the attacks on the World Trade Centre in September 2001 . - Did you see how these planes went through the building , at the corner of the building ? - Said the president of the Law and Justice recalling the terrorist attack . - But then the wings do not fall off - he stressed.


However, American authorities, explaining the attacks of September 11, 2001, never, ever reported that the aircrafts "went through the building." Both of them were completely torn to pieces, and their remains - striking the structural elements towers with great force - affected the stability of the buildings. To be precise - the walls of the WTC buildings were mostly made of glass and aluminum. The ultimate reason for the collapse of the towers was spilled aviation fuel (tanks of the planes were almost full), followed by fires at extremely high temperatures.

Thd following is a visualization, by scientists of Perdue University, of the hijacked aircraft NOT "going intact through the building".

So much for the Kaczyński's rubbish news number 1.

Here comes rubbish #2:
- Recently we had an example, that a plane in Siberia clipped the forest, and nobody was hurt. And yet here we have these chips, fragments, debris, and all people perished. This situation is characteristic of the explosion.

[Just for the record - despite what the newly found expert-engineer Kaczyński implies - this is not a recent example, but quite old, which happened on September 7, 2010 - just mere four months later than the Smolensk crash. ]

This was actually a controlled landing, performed under very difficult circumstances. With all electrical power gone, which resulted in the loss of the navigational systems, loss of the electric fuel pumps and only 3,300 kg usable fuel left - but with the engines still running, the pilots managed to land on an abandoned concrete strip, at Izhma airport (now used only for helicopters), 1325 metre long - too short for the aircraft of this size. They landed at the speed 350-380 km/h - due to their inability to use hydraulically powered flaps but operated by non-usable electric switches - they overrun the strip by 160 metres and stopped in the bushes.

Nobody of the 72 passengers and 9 crew members was hurt. One of the pilots, interviewed at Moscow, said: "When we overrun the strip, there were bushes not trees, and at that point we knew for sure that we were going to be safe."

The two videos below are the English language reports of the incident, including visualization of the landing and several interviews.
youtube.com/watch?v=B2soba8xJFk
youtube.com/watch?v=hzWCmyGqulQ&feature=fvwp&NR=1

However, several Polish skirmishers, the followers of Macierewicz's crazy theories, questioned the size of the bushes in the comments in one of these videos. But you can see it very clearly in this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=wyaM8oXuOJg&feature=endscreen&NR=1
After reaching the end of the runway, the airplane entered pine tree shrubbery of various size, but not bigger than the size of typical christmas tree, cropped few treetops and branches, veered a bit and braked - stopped by a bunch of pine shrubs alongside the attack surface of the wings. The trunks of the biggest trees on this video are not thicker than a man's arm. None of the rear flight control surfaces were damaged, as they were positioned way above the bush tops.

So much for Kaczyński's manipulation of facts: a bush is not a forest, a christmas tree is not a sizeable birch, taxing in bush is not the same as being still airborne at low hight and high speed.

When the same is trying to be done here, a proper investigation, it gets shut down as being complete madness.

I was about to pass on this and not to be involved in this discussion. But since I already am involved in this thread here are my observations.

Let me point to some facts: MAK's and Miller's report, as well as the Military Prosecutor's Office, present at least some data while Macierewicz's Parliamentary Committee (MPC) delivers nothing of value - besides speculations and accusations.

Let me quote from the MPC "Summary of findings" (my translation):

(A) Findings of prof. Kazimierz Nowaczyk (physics, lecturer at the University of Maryland), who studied the records that were installed on Tu-154M; that is U.S. FMS devices (board computer) and TAWS (system warning of approaching to the ground):

...
- The direct cause of the crash were the above-mentioned two strong shocks, whose source was not the mechanism of the plane. The fact of existence of the shocks and their magnitude was determined by the team of prof. Nowaczyk on the basis of data from the flight data recorder.

...
(C) Findings of dr. eng. Gregory Szuladzinski from Analytical Service Ply Ltd., Australia, a specialist in the fields of structural dynamics and processes of breakup, deformation and vibration in civil engineering, transportation and military technology.

- The most likely cause of the crash were two explosions following in rapid succession one after the other. An explosion occurred near the site where the TAWS system noted "landing event" and at the height of 36 meters above the runway (called TAWS 38) which exactly corresponds to two shocks recorded by the flight data recorder.

...


This was followed by a bunch of dr. Szuladziński's speculations, having nothing to do with any data whatsoever. Speculations, speculations with very strong conclusions. Neither Nowaczyk nor Szuladzinski had any special access to any other data that could qualify them to drawing any such conclusions. And they did not deliver any report or any calculations to the Military Prosecutor's Office, even though they were actually asked for such.

Now here is the interesting background, taken from the interview with dr. Nowaczyk for Niezależna.pl:

Why didn't MAK and Miller reports say anything about shocks? Where did you notice them?

Dr Kazimierz Nowaczyk, physicist, University of Maryland, a member of Macierewicz's parliamentary committee:
Because it can only be seen after a very careful analysis. These are fractions of a second, but a time period of the plots is so large - reaching tens of seconds - that the record of these shocks is not very visible, they are merged. Fortunately, the visualization technique of the MAK report is such that one can get high magnification of the plots and read them exactly.

...
I tried to enlarge the graphs - it turned out that the visualization technique of the charts in the MAK report is very friendly. They were prepared by the Russian program "WinArm32". It keeps good aspect ratio and good resolution. during magnifications. I then saw a record of two clear, strong shocks following each other while the plane was still in the air.


So, Dr. Nowaczyk uses the data from such highly criticized MAK report. And he even praises their data presentation. But the problem is with his last sentence. That's a bullshit, anyone can see it in their own eyes - you and me. The difference is that I actually looked at the data, while the "Smolensk folk" did not - they just prefer following the fables of grandpa Macierewicz; data to be damned!

So what particular data Nowaczyk and Szuladzinski refer to? To the readings of one analog channel, registering the vertical acceleration data taken from one single sensor, attached to who-knows-where location. And yet, on the basis of this dr. Szuladzinski speculates that "one explosion took place, more or less, in mid-section of the left wing; while the second "inside the fuselage". Now, this is a real magic of fabrication: One sensor, one location, one direction (vertical only) and yet Szuladzinski knows where those two invented explosions took place.

Notwithstanding their claimed expertise, I must object here, since I had been dealing with shocks and vibrations for many years. Any kind of vibration diagnostics of the system as complex as that airplane, would require not one but many accelerometers and data would have to be taken in all three directions. So no, Szuladzinski's conclusion should be put among the fables.

But let us take a close look at the data, available to Nowaczyk, specifically Fig. 45 of the MAK report. It covers the time slot between 10:40:10 and 10:41:04. That's the Smoleńsk time, two hours ahead of Warsaw. [There were two sources of timing on board, showing some 3.5 seconds shift against each other.] This aside, the chart covers the period of 54 seconds.

At the very top of the chart there is the vertical acceleration plot, in red. This is in fact the overload force acting on people inside the plane, but expressed in units of earth acceleration, g. Most of the time, the plot remains at the stable 1g acceleration level, occasionally decelerating to 0.9 g then going back to 1g. The 1 g force, is what you and I feel at home, and what the pilots felt most of the time in their airplane.

Six seconds before the perceived crash, the plot slightly raises to 1.1g, then to 1.2g (at -3.5 s) then to 1.35g (at -0.5s). These raise is quite gentle and cannot be associated - by any stretch of imagination - with shocks. But it could be associated with the overload caused by the pilots's attempt to suddenly accelerate upwards in order to get the plane away from the ground.

The only time when the plot demonstrates any abnormal behaviour is just after the perceived crash; for about 2 seconds, the plot gets berserk - dipping down to 0.75g, raising back to 1.35g, falling down to 0.25g, raising back to 1.40g and then finally sliding down to zero - indicating the end of the recording.

This may mean anything: the response of the sensor to the impact of plane against ground, the electrical short in the recorder, literally anything. And if anyone attempts to associate it with two strong shocks (Nowaczyk) or with two explosions (Szuladzinski) he must be nuts or just shows complete ignorance of the nature of shocks and the system response to such. Not much of professionalism here, gentlemen. Once again - a vibration sensor, a.k.a. an accelerometer does not measure the cause of vibrations or shocks, it measures the system response.

If you bang an elastic structure with a big hammer, you generate an impact force of the very short duration and a great magnitude. No matter, whether you model it as gate-shape, triangular, or any other sharp curve representing the impact there will be a response of the structure in some combination of damped sinusoidal waves. This is what might have been recorded in the last two seconds, not the two shocks.

I would not mind if the finding of Macierewicz's report were presented as possible hypotheses, representing some less or more probable scenarios. But I have problems with quasi-science, presenting hypotheses as facts, and the resulting hysteria and witch-hunt.
WielkiPolak 56 | 1,007
27 Apr 2012 #445
Look I'm not going to be playing expert here by analysing stuff and deciding what sources are reliable and what sources are not? Here is what I know, as someone with no skills in anything airline related. The way the Russians reacted and the unwillingness by them to allow the Polish side near the scene is suspicious. The report they gave that put the blame entirely on Poland [including blatant lies] is suspicious if not, to be expected. The fact that Michael Baden [American expert involved previously involved in high profile cases] is also very suspicious. The fact that PO want this to be forgotten and not mentioned again is suspicious. Finally I think the constant lies of how 'digging this up' over and over is having a negative emotional effect on the families is odd to say the least. It is the families who want this to keep on being investigated.

I personally have not once heard a person from PiS say it was deliberate murder, they simply say that it is starting to look more and more likely that it could be. I think the term 'conspiracy theory' is overused now and it is very easy to commit foul play these days, knowing that many people will react to any suggestions 'something dodgy' by rolling their eyes and muttering 'conspiracy theories,' thinking they are too intelligent to fall for these so called 'theories.'
Jimmu 2 | 156
11 May 2012 #446
"Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash" ROFL
There will never be a FINAL report as long as PiS thinks they can stir up things by demanding another investigation!
sobieski 106 | 2,118
17 May 2012 #447
And the Smolenkists keep moaning about the fact that the black boxes are not handed over to them.
Whereas they now have a problem, because Indonesia refused to hand over black boxes to Russia after the crash of the Russian plane, citing international law...

But somehow PIS missed this news because until now there was no reaction....
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
17 May 2012 #448
But somehow PIS missed this news because until now there was no reaction....

I told you.......
WielkiPolak 56 | 1,007
24 May 2012 #449
Actually Sobieski that is not what I heard.

First of all the Russians pretty much took over the investigation, with the Indonesians just assisting them.

Secondly the Indonesians did not refuse to give anything back. From what I gather the boxes were apparently located in the sea and very difficult to obtain, so the Russians have not yet managed to get them back. I do not see any reason as to why the Indonesians would not want to give them back, while I can think of quite a few why the Russians would not want to give Poland their boxes.

When it is a clear [or at least most likely] accident, there are no problems in retrieving evidence, so why was is so difficult for the Polish side to get theirs and why did it take so long?

Apparently the Russians have also ordered that every piece of the plane be taken back to Russia [again, normal in normal conditions].
OP pawian 224 | 24,429
24 May 2012 #450
Apparently

Hey, how about checking the sources and coming back with facts?


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