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The cross in Polish parliament - Does it bother you?


mafketis 29 | 10,297
19 Oct 2011 #31
This is a diversion and just what anyone who voted for the assclown party should have expected.

Old predator mouth is making a stink not because he cares but because he knows the usual suspects will expend a lot of time and energy in countering his assinine proposal. And the other usual suspects will make grumbling noises and no one in the sejm has to really think about more pressing issues.

FTR I'm not catholic or christian (or anything, I'm basically incapable of religious faith) and the cross doesn't bother me at all.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
19 Oct 2011 #32
No it does not. However the fact that Palikot and PIS give the issue so much prominence, demonstrates the dearth of any real policy ideas among these two parties, that's why the choose to engage in silly symbolism instead of focusing on the real needs of the country.
Olaf 6 | 956
19 Oct 2011 #33
no, the presence of the other symbols is as senseless as it would be to place other flags up there as well. Poles are Poles and Poles are majority catholic, why insist otherwise

So maybe it will be better if there are no symbols at all? Since it is a public space and in Sejm then according to Polish constitution act Poland is not a religious country so cross removed - problem solved. No one is favourised and cross will stop being traded or used as a tool to gain more publicity or again divide people ofer such a stupid thing as two pieces of wood.

Majority doesn`t mean 100%.

Exactly.

The cross is symbolic here so it's in the right place.

Can't agree with you on this one. The right place of all religious symbols is in places of cult. Once they are taken out of those places it causes division, quarrels and sick debates. Polish parliament is not supposed to have religious symbols because it should work accordingly to Polish constitution which says clearly that no religion is to be favourised in Poland. Also, this cross was hung at night, in secrecy by a bunch of religious radical MPs. How does this stand for objectivity and fairness, not to mention common sense and tolerance?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #34
It hasn't been touched so what does that tell you, Olaf? Poles cause division, not crosses ;) 2 Poles, 3 opinions ;)

Catholicism is favoured here, Olaf.

A cross could mean different denominations.

Tolerance can still exist whilst stating preferences.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
19 Oct 2011 #35
Olaf wrote: Polish parliament is not supposed to have religious symbols because it should work accordingly to Polish constitution which says clearly that no religion is to be favourised in Poland[/quote]

Exactly!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #36
What does it mean favouritised, rybnik? What's your interpretation?
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
19 Oct 2011 #37
I think a country needs to make decisions dependant on society, to a degree at least. In Saudi Islam is obviously the dominant religion and you have to conform to it. In Poland Catholicism is the dominant religion. If Poland lets in loads of foreigners and other religions, it might eventually lose its Catholic majority, forget its past, and have no crosses, obviously if the majority of the country are against it, but they are not, for now. If plenty of Europeans moved to S Arabia and the majority of the country was not made up of muslims, I am sure the law, eventually, would be different there too. Who decides in a country? The minority or majority? I mean does democracy not work by what the majority want? So in Poland the cross has to stay, if most people who have an opinion on the matter, want it to stay.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #38
Good post, WP. It isn't harming anyone.
bberlin62 - | 38
19 Oct 2011 #39
[quote=WielkiPolak Yes some people are not religious [/quote]

but the vast majority of us are still religious and it shouldn't bother anyone here. Remember what was giving us hope and kept our hearts warm anytime Poland was in a deep trouble or when it was no Poland at all (partitions). Now that we're doing much better, it would be very ungrateful to turn our backs on religion. If something is good in bad times, it should be good in good times too (and the other way around).
pawian 180 | 17,035
19 Oct 2011 #40
The newest poll:
70% would like the cross to stay in the Sejm.
20% want to remove it.

Most Poles rejects the idea of ​​Janusz Palikot to remove the cross from the meeting room of the Sejm - TNS survey shows the "Gazeta "

Removal of the cross from the parliamentary meeting room is one of the first demands of Janusz Palikot after entering the parliament , which is transformed into a political war. Yesterday Ms Wanda Nowicka Palikot Movement after acute exchange of views on this issue with John ...


Good results. The bad news is that every decade the opponents` number rises by 10%. In 50 years` time it will be 60% against and 20% for the cross.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
19 Oct 2011 #41
bberlin62:

but the vast majority of us are still religious and it shouldn't bother anyone here. Remember what was giving us hope and kept our hearts warm anytime Poland was in a deep trouble or when it was no Poland at all (partitions). Now that we're doing much better, it would be very ungrateful to turn our backs on religion. If something is good in bad times, it should be good in good times too (and the other way around).

No one is turning his or her back on religion. Just remove the religious symbol from the Sejm (or add an Orthodox cross and a Star of David and an Islamic crescent etc alongside the crucifix).

excellent in-depth article regarding same

iheu.org/trackback/1124
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #42
If democracy is representative, why can't a cross be? I'd argue that a cross is far more representative and actually has Polish interests at heart.
rybnik 18 | 1,461
19 Oct 2011 #43
If democracy is representative, why can't a cross be?

Because of precisely what a crucifix represents!
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #44
If it can instill some morality into politics, I'm all for it!
rybnik 18 | 1,461
19 Oct 2011 #45
But it doesn't. .....Don't you get it? The cross' original religious association has been usurped by the politicians. It has morphed into a political symbol.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Oct 2011 #46
Yes but it's the same wherever you go, rybnik. In that case, you can remove the cross wherever it may hang as people, without fail, completely miss the point of religion. Politicians have their own spin, they don't need crosses.
gazzaroon - | 36
19 Oct 2011 #47
If it can instill some morality into politics, I'm all for it!

I would agree with this.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
20 Oct 2011 #48
In Poland Catholicism is the dominant religion. If Poland lets in loads of foreigners and other religions, it might eventually lose its Catholic majority

Poland does have strong foundations based on the Judeo-Christian inheritance, but it also has another inheritance concerned with religious toleration and freedom of worship-or non worship-as is guaranteed by the Polish constitution. Making one religion institutional in a country is quite medieval, for example like Anglicanism in the UK. In a true pluralistic society no religion should be favored at the expense of the others.
modafinil - | 418
20 Oct 2011 #49
Let the churches put Christ first for the sake of its flock, and the politicians the nation's people for the sake of Poland.
To Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Jesus saw governance as a separate issue to faith, ime.
bberlin62 - | 38
20 Oct 2011 #50
[quote=rybnik Just remove the religious symbol from the Sejm (or add an Orthodox cross and a Star of David and an Islamic crescent[/quote]

this is not America rybnik. We have one main religion here. It's a totally different situation.
Olaf 6 | 956
20 Oct 2011 #51
Catholicism is favoured here, Olaf.

Not according to the law, the constitution being its supreme act.
None should be favored so... why insist on this?

Tolerance can still exist whilst stating preferences.

Read the constitution first and you'll know.
hythorn 3 | 580
20 Oct 2011 #52
Let the churches put Christ first for the sake of its flock, and the politicians the nation's people for the sake of Poland.
To Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Jesus saw governance as a separate issue to faith, ime.

could not agree more

well said

I believe that the cross should stay in parliament. If there is a place that needs the divine intervention of the Almighty
it is a parliament
Olaf 6 | 956
21 Oct 2011 #53
If there is a place that needs the divine intervention of the Almighty
it is a parliament

It only needs competent polititians, economists and lawyers, not a piece of voodoo hanging on the wall.
If you want a symbol representing a corpse of a martyred man and his death tool hanging there - then there's something wrong, or this is a place of cult of death, not a working place of MPs.
frd 7 | 1,399
21 Oct 2011 #54
I'm an atheist, and I think they should just leave it. I'm against both throwing it out, and laying down the law to guard its place..
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
21 Oct 2011 #55
The bad news is that every decade the opponents` number rises by 10%. In 50 years` time it will be 60% against and 20% for the cross.

Well if the majority wanted it removed then that would be only fair. As for now, the majority seem to want it, so the wishes of the majority ought to be respected: )
rybnik 18 | 1,461
22 Oct 2011 #56
ie the Constitution be damned! Look. All I'm saying is that if Poles want the crucifix to hang in public places(where the people's business takes place) then they need to reconcile this with their Constitution.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
22 Oct 2011 #57
what's more important? What Poles want now or what Poles wanted then?
The question is obviously too simplistic but there is an aspect of it to consider before erring with alternative but equally simplistic judgment.
Crow 151 | 9,722
22 Oct 2011 #58
Obviously there is quite a lot of debate currently going on in Poland about the cross.

What are your thoughts?

then listen

In all Slavic countries, including Poland (and including my own country- Serbia), people mistaking. We mistaking because we abandoned our ancient symbolism. i mean, its ok to put Christian cross in parliament. It is even good. But, i think that side by side with cross, we Slavs needs to promote other symbols of our deep culture. We needs symbols of Swetowid, sun, solstice,.. and our other old symbols that connects us with nature and with each others.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
22 Oct 2011 #59
Olaf, the law is an a*s! That's an English expression. How many people make such laws? A handful, yes. How many people are Catholics here? Many many!! Please try and not overstate the importance of law, esp as it concerns religion and matters of faith.

I don't insist on anything. Catholicism is very important here, no sense in denying that.

Olaf, I worked on the Polish Constitution with a Polish legal executive but I don't see it as being relevant here. If the cross being there is so unconstitutional then why hasn't it been removed? Doesn't Poland respect its own traditions and Constitution?? You might get some answers from asking yourself that, Olaf my friend.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
22 Oct 2011 #60
What are your thoughts?

Obviously I'm not going to support Paligłup, however "Polish parliament" is such a pieace of crap that it doesn't deserve to have any cross hanging there, you could as well hang it in the closet...

Seriously, there's a simple solution, Cross with Jesus on it is a religious symbol and should be limited to churches and few other places, Cross without Jesus is a cultural symbol and that's it, as one would have to be a total moron to deny largly Christian roots of European culture.

The problem is that Polish politicians are not interested in solving this issue, they want it to go on, they will have countless discussions about it... It's much easier than talking about the global crisis, strategical challenges ahead of Poland and so on.


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