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Chairman Kaczyński said..... / Opinions and ideas uttered by the leader of the PIS


delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
23 Jul 2012 #181
is for JK's death I'm afraid. Who will oust him?

No-one at this rate - he's dispatched virtually every challenger with the utmost ease. He would have made a fantastic Communist - able to deal with plots and challengers - real or perceived - effectively and quickly.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
23 Jul 2012 #182
how does he do that? The loyalty he commands would make any politician in the West salivate!
It's truly amazing.
He's untouchable.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
23 Jul 2012 #183
how does he do that? The loyalty he commands would make any politician in the West salivate!

You're telling me - I've lost count, but his track record now is something like 2 electoral wins and 14 losses. He's lost something like 6 or 7 elections in a row too now - yet he remains absolutely untouchable as leader. Every time that the media speculates that he will have a challenger, he deals with them swiftly and effectively.

It's all down to his immense charisma - he says exactly what the followers want to hear.

(unfortunately, this same charisma is also incredibly repulsive to the majority)
rybnik 18 | 1,462
23 Jul 2012 #184
It's all down to his immense charisma - he says exactly what the followers want to hear. (unfortunately, this same charisma is also incredibly repulsive to the majority)

it's all very strange to me
I'm just learning
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
23 Jul 2012 #185
how does he do that? He's untouchable. It's truly amazing.

It's all down to his immense charisma - he says exactly what the followers want to hear (unfortunately, this same charisma is also incredibly repulsive to the majority)

Yes, JK is a master of the universe in a certain sense.

Take Zbigniew Ziobro (ZZ) as an example. He was fed up with 14 electoral losses of PiS (this number according to Delph, I myself did never count them), so he demanded a free political debate within the party. JK didn't like such an idea and as a consequence ZZ had been expelled from the party's ranks. ZZ forms his own political party, Solidarna Polska.

What happens next? At a big rally in Warsaw (on the Smolensk crash, I think) where the two are being present, JK suddenly calls on ZZ in a very loud voice: Zbyszku, wracaj! (Zbyszek, come back!). Everyone applauds, but JK immediately quits the rally, not even daring to wait for ZZ's response. But everyone gets the message of how JK is reconcilable and how much he wants the unity of the Polish political right-wing forces. ZZ suddenly finds himself in a dead-end situation: he knows he was thrown out of the party, but the rally has got the message that he was the one who quitted since the chairman has just called on him to come back.

Isn't it the mastery of the universe?
rybnik 18 | 1,462
23 Jul 2012 #186
Isn't it the mastery of the universe?

certainly the political universe ;)
Ironside 48 | 9,899
23 Jul 2012 #187
Yes, JK is a master of the universe in a certain sense.

He is not, he is fairly efficient at best. Also there is no charisma in JK, not at all.

rybnik the fact that JK enjoy certain support is due to real not artificial issues in Poland. Those "experts" on politics in Poland you can read on PF seems to think that JK is a main issue and problem, that HE as to speak generate a bad vibes in Poland.

In fact there are bad vibes regardless of JK existence and stance, he is the one that to some extend represent opposition to PO (PRL-bis) which exists anyway.

Those "experts" believe that such opposition can be dealt with easier if not for JK and his party in the Parliament.
They are right and they are wrong at the same time. Without such outlet of steam which the JK party is, and without slim hope for changes he represents to many people,and given almost totalitarian character of present system in Poland, there is a good chance of suppressed opposition turning nasty and violent.

The point is that present government is highly inefficient and corrupted.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
23 Jul 2012 #188
He is not, he is fairly efficient at best. Also there is no charisma in JK, not at all.

To throw a most prominent politician like Zbigniew Ziobro out of PiS, and then claim he should "come back" in front of the prospective voters of both JK and his rival is a proof of a political genius, not of "efficiency", as you call it. Efficency is something that is readily available to all of us who want to achieve it, but most of us would be unable to manipulate the opinion just as JK is able to do.

The pecularity of JK's political genius, however, is that while he is so apt at keeping his political rivals away from competition, he still loses 6 or 7 elections in a row (according to Delph, I myself did never count it myself).
Ironside 48 | 9,899
23 Jul 2012 #189
To throw a most prominent politician like Zbigniew Ziobro out of PiS, and then claim he should "come back" in front of the prospective voters of both JK and his rival is a proof of a political genius, not of "efficiency", as you call it.

Years of experience that all.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
23 Jul 2012 #190
he still loses 6 or 7 elections in a row (according to Delph, I myself did never count it myself).

I think I'll count it, just to refer back to. These are elections where he was the party leader. There may be more, but I'm not certain of them. I'm not sure of what happened to the Centre Agreement after 1993 until the formation of PiS - and in 2001 when PiS first ran for election, Lech was the leader.

Wins :

2005 - Presidential Elections
2005 - Sejm
2005 - Senat

Losses :

1991 - 4th place in the Sejm election
1993 - no seats in the Sejm
2002 - 3rd place in the Sejmik elections
2004 - 3rd place in the European election
2006 - Sejmik elections - 2nd place
2006 - county council elections - 2nd place
2006 - muncipal councils - 3rd place
2006 - mayoral elections - 3rd place
2007 - Sejm - 2nd place
2007 - Senat - 2nd place
2009 - European elections - 2nd place
2010 - Presidential election - 2nd place
2010 - Sejmiks - 2nd place
2010 - county councils - 3rd place
2010 - municipal councils - 3rd place
2011 - Sejm - 2nd place
2011 - Senat - 2nd place

I count 3 wins and 17 losses, with 13 consecutive losses as party leader since 2006. There may be more losses in the 1990's, but I don't have the concrete data. I'm particularly not sure about the 1994 local elections. I'm also sure that he would have lost more elections in 2002, but again - no data.

Either way, to hold onto power after such a dramatic losing streak is a sign of how much immense power over PiS that he really has.
Puzzie 1 | 63
23 Jul 2012 #191
(unfortunately, this same charisma is also incredibly repulsive to the majority)

Delphi, I don't think it's the case. Kaczynski is still respected by many, in spite of the incredible smear campaign against him in the main media (which are post-commie) and elsewhere.

And, Delphi, during Communism Kaczynski never went for the career as a commie activist. He never belonged to the PZPR (Polish United Workers Party).

If you care about Poland's good, you should vote PiS as, in spite of their shortcomings (which party doesn't have them?), it's the only serious and realistic alternative to the destructive rule of the PO. But you'd have to do it in absolute secret, because, as head of the English deparatment, your bosses are probably staunch PO or neo-communist, that is SLD or Ruch Palikota, supporters. Yes, in Polish universities and schools you've got to be very careful about your political views - they'd better not be pro-PiS.
jon357 63 | 14,254
23 Jul 2012 #192
I count 3 wins and 17 losses, with 13 consecutive losses as party leader since 2006.

Exactly. The people don't trust him and his shower in office.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
23 Jul 2012 #193
And, Delphi, during Communism Kaczynski never went for the career as a commie activist. He never belonged to the PZPR (Polish United Workers Party).

Unfortunately, his father provided much of the benefits for him. Or he simply wasn't there - I've never found a definitive answer to this question, but either he was protected by his father's activities in the PZPR (God only knows what he must have done to go from AK fighter to PZPR traitor) or he didn't do anything against the Communists. Lech was also suspiciously released rather quickly...

Delphi, I don't think it's the case. Kaczynski is still respected by many, in spite of the incredible smear campaign against him in the main media (which are post-commie) and elsewhere.

Smear campaign? He pretty much brought that all on himself - all the activities against journalists, all the hysteria against TVN/GW/etc - it's no surprise that he ended up absolutely despised by much of the mainstream media. His attempts to pack TVP with his men just made it all the worse - the opposition (as it was) media understandably savaged him for it.

If you care about Poland's good, you should vote PiS as, in spite of their shortcomings (which party doesn't have them?), it's the only serious and realistic alternative to the destructive rule of the PO.

I don't think PO are destructive. And yes, I care about Poland's well being - and for me, electing a bunch of Catholic-Socialists would be an absolute disaster. I don't want to live in a country where religion dictates social policies - it's that simple.

But you'd have to do it in absolute secret, because, as head of the English deparatment, your bosses are probably staunch PO or neo-communist, that is SLD or Ruch Palikota, supporters. Yes, in Polish universities and schools you've got to be very careful about your political views - they'd better not be pro-PiS.

I don't know where you're from, but in Poznan, there are plenty of openly PiS voting people in schools and universities. I know quite a few personally. Don't you remember the open scandal about how certain heads of departments were demanding that workers sign the documents for Jarek's candidacy? Despite what the opposition media would have you believe - there is no stigma against voting for PiS. Ask yourself who the foresters voted for en masse last time ;)

I don't remember where to find the list, but there's also a public list somewhere with lots of professors/etc in public universities who declared their support for PiS. There really is no issue with it - why would there be? It's not as if Komorowski is vetoing professorial appointments for revenge or anything...

Curious that you describe people as "neo-Communist" when Jarek is the product of a turncoat traitor, though.

Exactly. The people don't trust him and his shower in office.

The figures speak for themselves - PiS are absolutely unelectable in their current guise.

I do think however, that Ziobro will seize power at some point and bring PiS into being a normal, respectable Catholic-socialist party free of all the hysteria. I look forward to it.
Puzzie 1 | 63
23 Jul 2012 #194
Unfortunately, his father provided much of the benefits for him. Or he simply wasn't there - I've never found a definitive answer to this question, but either he was protected by his father's activities in the PZPR (God only knows what he must have done to go from AK fighter to PZPR traitor) or he didn't do anything against the Communists.

Hahahahah! You're very funny, delph. I like your neophytism. You're a fine Pole already.

So far, there hasn't been any evidence of any wrongdoing on Kaczynski's father's part, only some phony speculations. I say phony because they can be made about anyone at all, including yourself. Give sufficient time to the Gazeta Wyborcza or Newesweek Polska oszołomy and they'll prove you were in the KGB.

Besides, if Kaczynski should be condemned for his dad's alleged involvement with the commies, how much more should be condemned the likes of Michniak, Monika Olejnik, and many others.

Just, once again, be very careful about what you say at work. As the bar owner Palivec in Haszek's "Szwejk" (the fav book of many Poles) says: "Słówko z pyska wyleci a potem bieda." ("A tiny word flies out of the blower and there's a mess.")
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
23 Jul 2012 #195
So far, there hasn't been any evidence of any wrongdoing on Kaczynski's father's part, only some phony speculations. I say phony because they can be made about anyone at all, including yourself. Give sufficient time to the Gazeta Wyborcza or Newesweek Polska oszołomy and they'll prove you were in the KGB.

Any evidence? His father went from an AK member to being in the PZPR. That's enough evidence to me - we know from historical record that AK members simply didn't get welcomed with open arms into the Party.

I still think Jarek is driven by immense shame (and perhaps even rage) at what his father must have done to gain their trust. His whole anti-Communist thing - where did it come from? Don't forget that his father had a rather interesting rise in his career shortly after WW2 - even working in some very interesting places where only trusted individuals would get the job.

Besides, if Kaczynski should be condemned for his dad's alleged involvement with the commies, how much more should be condemned the likes of Michniak, Monika Olejnik, and many others.

This is exactly why most people are sick to death of the whole witchhunt thing. Barely anyone in Poland is genuinely free from such associations, even if they had nothing to do with it themselves. Do we really want to sit around for the next 30 years accusing people of being this, that and the next thing - or do we want to work to build a better Poland?

Just, once again, be very careful about what you say at work.

I could openly vote PiS at work, wouldn't make an ounce of difference. I don't buy into the whole propoganda that somehow voting for PiS means you'll have problems - it certainly hasn't hurt many others. But many people are very, very afraid of what will happen if PiS regain power - and you can't blame the media for report Jarek's words as-is.
sofijufka 2 | 191
24 Jul 2012 #196
Any evidence? His father went from an AK member to being in the PZPR

Rajmund Kaczyński NEVER was a member of PZPR. It's a lie, a part of smear campaign... And commies did'ny prosecute ALL AK, simply they needed educated people to rebuild war-ravaged country.

My aunt and her husband was in AK, so was my land-lady and her husband, they weren't arrested and could work in the Biuro Odbudowy Stolicy, my mother - also ex-AK - could work as a teacher, until one person snitched on her to the security police [that she said some unkind things about Soviet Union]... Fotunately my mother was given only 3 years in suspension...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
24 Jul 2012 #197
And commies did'ny prosecute ALL AK, simply they needed educated people to rebuild war-ravaged country.

my mother - also ex-AK - could work as a teacher, until one person snitched on her to the security police [that she said some unkind things about Soviet Union]

These statements are in some opposition, aren't they. It is true that ordinary members of the AK were not persecuted by the commies. But it is also true that ordinary members of the AK were not telling people around them that they were members of the AK. As far as I know (and I know it rather well as I spent so many years in PRL), those people wished to be totally quiet about the AK.

But you'd have to do it in absolute secret, because, as head of the English deparatment, your bosses are probably staunch PO or neo-communist, that is SLD or Ruch Palikota, supporters. Yes, in Polish universities and schools you've got to be very careful about your political views - they'd better not be pro-PiS.

This incredibly amazing statement of this poster is one that should be classified as pure fantasy. Some people may sometimes laugh at PiS supporters (which isn't nice, anyway, as everyone is entitled to his own political opinions), but spreading views as these simply shows that you are in the PiS extremist's ranks. And your mention about universities in this context is particularly ridiculous; you just feel as if you were the only honest person in this beautiful country caught up and besiegied in a stronghold attacked by Tusk, Palikot and other evil forces; no wonder that some people may laugh at such PiS voters from time to time.

Give sufficient time to the Gazeta Wyborcza or Newesweek Polska oszołomy and they'll prove you were in the KGB.

The way you describe your political oponents proves that people who tend not to vote the PiS in Poland may be rightfully afraid that once the PiS arrives in power, "in Polish universities and schools you've got to be very careful about your political views", as you were so kind to put it a few lines above.
sofijufka 2 | 191
24 Jul 2012 #198
sofijufka: my mother - also ex-AK - could work as a teacher, until one person snitched on her to the security police [that she said some unkind things about Soviet Union]These statements are in some opposition, aren't they.

why?
Puzzie 1 | 63
24 Jul 2012 #199
Are you saying a statement of mine is "incredibly amazing" and pure fantasy? Which one and can you prove it's "incredibly amazing" and pure fantasy? Are you saying I'm spreading some views and that my spreading them shows I'm a PiS extremist? Prove it. What does the expression "PiS extremist" signify? Does it signify anything real or purely fantastic? Why would my "mention about universities" be ridiculous? Prove it is. What do you actually mean when you say I just feel as if I were the only honest person, etc.? Prove I feel like this.

The way you describe your political oponents proves that people who tend not to vote the PiS in Poland may be rightfully afraid that once the PiS arrives in power.

Are you saying the fact I called the hacks from Gazeta Wyborcza and Newsweek Polska "oszołoms" is proof that PiS opponents are right in being scared that if PiS is back in power they'll have to be careful about expressing their political views in universities and schools? In what way my calling the said hacks "oszoloms" would be proof the PiS opponents are right in being scared? Prove they are.

Are you denying that the management in public institutions in Poland, including universities, is often PO-nominated and as such hostile towards PiS, including those employees who are PiS supporters?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
24 Jul 2012 #200
PiS get a different leader, do a reshuffle and re think main arguments when running for government at the next election.

And where would this white knight come from, this king from across the water. The fact that the current PIS crop is to gutless to challenge him for the leadership, or to incompetent to conduct an internal party coup, shows them to be not only cowardly but also incompetent. People like that shouldn't be anywhere near power.

Are you saying a statement of mine is "incredibly amazing" and pure fantasy? Which one and can you prove it's "incredibly amazing" and pure fantasy?

Not only is it pure fantasy, but it is also complete unadulterated crap borne out an overheated suspicion carried over from the days of communism. Poland is a free and democratic country that respects the rule of law, get with the times. It's amazing how some PIS supporters would even question this basic premise that most normal people take for granted.
Puzzie 1 | 63
24 Jul 2012 #201
The fact that the current PIS crop is to gutless to challenge him for the leadership, or to incompetent to conduct an internal party coup, shows them to be not only cowardly but also incompetent. People like that shouldn't be anywhere near power.

Tough words. You're saying PiS members should get rid off pan Jarosław Kaczyński as PiS leader? Why should they do that? You're saying they want to get rid off him but are to gutless or too incompetent to carry it out? On what grounds would you say that? How about if PiS members don't get rid off pan Kaczyński not because they are cowards or incompetents, but simply because they don't want to get rid off him? Who shouldn't be anywhere near power and why?

It's amazing how some PIS supporters would even question this basic premise that most normal people take for granted.

Another tough statement. Are you saying anything that I wrote is "complete unadulterated crap borne out," etc.? Prove it is such a crap. Which PiS supporters question the premise that Poland is a free and democratic country that "respects the rule of law, get with the times"? Are you saying that questioning such a premise" is abnormal? Why would it be abnormal?
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
24 Jul 2012 #202
@ Puzzie "the prove it"

In almost every line of your statements being a reply to mine, you are shouting "prove it, prove it, prove it!". But the simple fact, however, is that you yourself have not proved any of yours yet. Prove it first that you are capable of proving each of your own statements before starting to call on other people to prove theirs.

Prove it, prove it, prove it, dear!

Post scriptum:

Give sufficient time to the Gazeta Wyborcza or Newesweek Polska oszołomy and they'll prove you were in the KGB.

Prove that they'll prove you were in the KGB!!!
gumishu 11 | 5,017
24 Jul 2012 #203
Poland is a free and democratic country that respects the rule of law, get with the times.

i sometimes doubt it very much - especially the part of the rule of law - and I'm here to judge it while you are in Australia hague
Puzzie 1 | 63
24 Jul 2012 #204
In almost every line of your statements being a reply to mine, you are shouting "prove it, prove it, prove it!". But the simple fact, however, is that you yourself have not proved any of yours yet. Prove it first that you are capable of proving each of your own statements before starting to call on other people to prove theirs.Prove it, prove it, prove it, dear!

Let's see. You made some statements about my post, but gave no evidence they were true. So I asked you for the evidence. In reply you demanded that I prove something first. Do you mean I made some statements in a conversation with you but didn't prove they were true? Which statements would that be? So you're saying my proving the veracity of those alleged statements of mine is the condition for your proving that your actual statements about me are true? Why would it be the condition?

Ah, and prove, please, that I shouted at you.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
24 Jul 2012 #205
i sometimes doubt it very much - especially the part of the rule of law - and I'm here to judge it while you are in Australia hague

I don't really think that for a fair and accurate judgment you have to be in the country you are judging, or that the judgment of the person who is inside that country is better that a judgment of those who are outside it. Judgment is judgment, and it depends on a person rather than on the place of residence.

To prove my statement, I may recall many Western politicians and citizens who had never been to PRL as judging the PRL to be a non-demoiratic country. On the contrary, many of the communist party members here as well as the people in power in PRL judged it a democratic country, as they had even written something about it in their "People's Republic" constitution od 1952, and also held a free "democratic" election to the Seym every four years.
Puzzie 1 | 63
24 Jul 2012 #206
To prove my statement

What do you mean by "prove my statement"? How can you "prove statement"?
Ziemowit 12 | 3,608
24 Jul 2012 #207
Ah, and prove, please, that I shouted at you. Can you?

I don't really think that I said that you shouted at me. I said that you shouted "prove it!" (not at me, but on the forum generally) as the essence of you reply was repeatedly wanting me to prove all my statements I said. That is something which is equal to avoiding a reply; you demand your interlocutor to prove all that he said rather than utter your own reply. A bizzare technique and a rather convenient way - if one is short of arguments - to carry on an exchange of opinion of any kind.

Then I told you to use the same technique towards yourself and prove your statements which I questioned, but you have not. As soon as you prove your statements that I questioned, I will prove mine.

What do you mean by "prove my statement"? How can you "prove statement"?

You should explain it yourself first. You were the one who wanted me to prove my statements on the facts you gave.

Technically, the verb "to prove" needs a direct object. You used the direct object with this verb by saying "prove it". I have chosen another noun for this direct object, I replaced "it" with "statetment".
Puzzie 1 | 63
24 Jul 2012 #208
You should explain it yourself first. You were the one who wanted me to prove my statements on the facts you gave.

You mean I myself should explain first what you mean by the expression "prove my statement" and how you can "prove statement"? How could I explain it if you hasn't told me? How should I know what YOU mean? Do you mean I said to you: "Prove your statements on the facts I gave"? Where did I say that, allegedly?

So you're alleging I was shouting not at you but at everyone on the forum? Prove I did. If I had shouted at everyone i would have shouted at you too, wouldn't I? Are you saying that my asking you to prove the validity of your statements about me is avoiding a reply? In what way would it be avoiding a reply?

you demand your interlocutor to prove all that he said rather than utter your own reply

Are you saying that my demanding from you the proof in question isn't my reply? That IS my reply. So can you prove that your statements about me are true, or you can't?

A bizzare technique and a rather convenient way - if one is short of arguments - to carry on an exchange of opinion of any kind.

Are you saying my asking you for the proof in question is a bizarre technique? Why would it be a bizarre technique? Prove it is. So you're saying that my asking you for proving what you said is true is a convenient way to continue an exchange of any opinion? Why would you inform me about it? Are you saying I don't have some arguments? What arguments and for what? Isn't it rather YOU who don't have any arguments for proving your statements about me are true?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
25 Jul 2012 #209
i sometimes doubt it very much - especially the part of the rule of law - and I'm here to judge it while you are in Australia hague

You would have read that I qualified my post by stating normal people.

You're saying they want to get rid off him but are to gutless or too incompetent to carry it out? On what grounds would you say that?

On the the grounds that he is a complete failure as opposition leader and regarded as pure poison among the broader electorate, so on the presumption that they aren't completely brain dead, they would have a very good idea of his standing among voters and yet they do or are incapable of doing nothing.

Prove it is such a crap.

It is crap, because you made a blanket statement about PO not allowing PIS professors to be appointed to university faculties, without backing this statement up with any facts.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
25 Jul 2012 #210
Be fair - many of them owe their position down to his immense charisma too. He - undeniably - united the many Catholic-Socialist voters under one banner, and he *is* consistently achieving 30% in all elections. It's understandable that they're afraid to act - a split in PiS (a real split, not splintering) would destroy their hopes of election until 2019. 2015 is a massive year electorally - both President and the Sejm/Senat will be elected then, along with European and local elections in 2014. Kaczynski is also a total master at the "unity" line - which is keeping the moderate PiS members in line.


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