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Prevention of child abduction by Polish mother.


Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #1
My ex-partner recently gave birth to our child and was insisting on taking them out of the UK and that I would never see them again. I have taken steps to ensure that this does not happen in taking out a ‘Preventative Steps Order’ through the UK courts that prevents my ex-partner from taking our child out of the UK. The UK border agency and Polish consulate have been informed of this action. However, are there any other steps that I should take to ensure that my child cannot be taken out of the UK immediately, or sensible actions that I should take in the future? I should say that I am not married to the mother, nor at present on the birth certificate.

I am not acting in a malicious manner or with anger towards my ex-partner. I simply want my child to have both parents in their life so hopefully despite their parents not being together they have the best childhood possible.

Any advice would be gratefully appreciated.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #2
I should say that I am not married to the mother, nor at present on the birth certificate.

so you couldnt be arsed to make it to the registry office to register your kids birth, nor did you marry her. Loser.
smurf 39 | 1,982
27 Mar 2012  #3
rozumiemnic

.....and PL's greatest troll keeps on trolling

champion
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #5
so you couldnt be arsed to make it to the registry office to register your kids birth, nor did you marry her. Loser.

Thank you for your very helpful piece of advice, I can obviously see that whilst you're online there is a village definitely missing an idiot!
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #6
Anglik, YOU sound like the idiot.
Fathers who name themselves on the birth certificate have a much easier time.
You just have to be there.
It's called 'taking responsibility'.
What, did you have a hangover that morning? Or busy with another woman?
Or maybe you thought to avoid the CSA?
Most idiotic is your use of the word 'abduction'
FFS.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #7
1) Very grown up, are you just a "HATER', or are you trying provoke people!
2) If the mother wants to not name you on the birth certificate that is their choice, and not up to me so I will have to go to court to do this which is what I am doing.

3) I have offered to pay for the child's needs, and go to visit the child every week to have the door closed in my face.

4) She decided she wanted to be a single parent, not me. I have done all I could to take responsibility and have taken all of my ex's abuse and not responded to her insults.

5) What would you call it if you were barred from seeing your own child and them being taken away from you and not being told where they were moving to?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #8
5) What would you call it if you were barred from seeing your own child and them being taken away from you and not being told where they were moving to?

look anglik I dont know, that sounds bad but I just know these one sided stories are just that, one sided. Why would she do that if you were Mr Angel Anglik?

Did you drink, take drugs, threaten her, insult her? What?
I must apologise if I have got it all wrong.
And I am not a HATER no.
YOu offered to pay her money to support the baby? And she turned it down? In that case, she has her reasons.
pip 10 | 1,661
27 Mar 2012  #9
I think your best option is to go through the courts. get yourself a good lawyer- a female lawyer that supports the rights of fathers.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #10
look anglik I dont know, that sounds bad but I just know these one sided stories are just that, one sided. Why would she do that if you were Mr Angel Anglik?
Did you drink, take drugs, threaten her, insult her? What?
I must apologise if I have got it all wrong.

I agree with you about these one sided stories, I'm no saint and would never claim to be. I don't drink to excess, but I like a beer or glass of wine, I don't do drugs, I haven't threatened her and I haven't insulted her. I was going to ask her to marry me after she became pregnant because I couldn't think of anything better than being with her and her having our child. However, after having discussed marriage she then said she wasn't sure. My ex seemed to change after she went home for a visit and just pushed me away, one argument that wasn't huge and that was it. I have chatted to friends who have been pregnant recently and my Polish friends and explained the full details of the argument that I don't want to into detail about here, and they can't understand it. True they are only hearing my version of events, but I have explained what it could of seemed like from my ex's point of view. Neither of these two groups of my friends understands the initial break up and are even more confused by the way she is stopping me from seeing my child now.

I agree with your point totally about there being two sides to every story, but I honestly don't understand where it all went so wrong. Now I want to concentrate on my child having their father in their life and being a responsible Dad. So any advice you can give me would be appreciated.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #11
Now I want to concentrate on my child having their father in their life and being a responsible Dad. So any advice you can give me would be appreciated.

get a good lawyer on your side, ASAP, as Pip suggested.
Maybe social services too?
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #12
I think your best option is to go through the courts. get yourself a good lawyer- a female lawyer that supports the rights of fathers.

Hi Pip

Many thanks, I have that covered, a good female solicitor

Hi Rozumiemnic

Many thanks and sorry to call you a 'hater' earlier.

I have a good lawyer, but I don't want to get social services involved as I think she is a very good mother from the little that I have seen; and also that would just be being cruel to her.
pawian 159 | 9,463
27 Mar 2012  #13
I am not acting in a malicious manner or with anger towards my ex-partner. I simply want my child to have both parents in their life so hopefully despite their parents not being together they have the best childhood possible.

So:

-she wants to go back to Poland.

-you are going to keep her in the UK against her will because you want to be a father.

I don`t know about British law in such cases, but in my opinion she has the right to go back to Poland and take her child with her, especially that you are not married.

If you want to have a contact with the child afterwards you will probably have to file a lawsuit in the Polish court which will decide about alimonies too.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
27 Mar 2012  #14
o you couldnt be arsed to make it to the registry office to register your kids birth, nor did you marry her. Loser.

Why do you automatically assume that he is the one who did not want to marry? Are you one of those women who 'feel' that it's always the man's fault?

I was going to ask her to marry me after she became pregnant because I couldn't think of anything better than being with her and her having our child

rosumiemnic, you should be ashamed of your false assumptions.

f the mother wants to not name you on the birth certificate that is their choice, and not up to me so I will have to go to court to do this which is what I am doing.

Good luck. There is no argument that the system favors women when it comes to these issues. Only a fool would not acknowledge that.

I have offered to pay for the child's needs, and go to visit the child every week to have the door closed in my face.

That says a lot. The mother of your child is obviously jaded.

She decided she wanted to be a single parent, not me. I have done all I could to take responsibility and have taken all of my ex's abuse and not responded to her insults.

That should answer rozumiemnic's misandrist assumptions.

What would you call it if you were barred from seeing your own child and them being taken away from you and not being told where they were moving to?

I would call it as it is. She is a typical modern spoiled woman who has so many advantages yet will still complain about 'oppression'. If your situation was reversed, you would be considered evil and the 'poor little woman' would be considered a "victim".

YOu offered to pay her money to support the baby? And she turned it down? In that case, she has her reasons.

Yes, of course. A woman always has her reasons and she doesn't even have to give them; after all, she is an "empowered" and "entitled" modern day woman. Only men have to give logical and responsible answers.

I recall a discussion I had at a book club where the women were lambasting a man for "kidnapping" his son. A mere half hour later these same women were sympathetic to a woman who did the same. Only the sexes were reversed. It isn't surprising that people like your critic haven't learn to think outside their limited fishbowl.

Good luck Anglik, you will need it. In these areas it is men who need "equal rights" and no logical person, male or female can dispute that.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #15
oh ZIMMY I knew it would only be a matter of time before you popped up!
How we have missed you!
Where have you been?
Do tell.
BTW I agree with you, just that I missed you so much, I thought I would lay some ZIMMY bait.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #16
Hi Pawian

I don't mind her going back to Poland with my child as long as I get to see my child. The education system is probably better, there is less crime and I wouldn't mind living in Poland myself after I have learnt some more Polish.

Not keeping her in the UK against her will, I just want to be recognised as the father so I can take responsibilty for my child. After I have parental responsibility, visitation rights and sorted out a few minor legal issues I am happy to fly to Poland to see my child. I have been to Poland several time and enjoy being in the country and have friends over there.

I completely agree my ex has the right to go back to Poland and take our child with her. I just want to make sure that I play an active part in my child's life and am able to provide for them.

I would rather go through the English courts as I don't speak much Polish to my shame, and my ex speaks excellent English so it is an even playing field.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #17
Anglik1: f the mother wants to not name you on the birth certificate that is their choice, and not up to me so I will have to go to court to do this which is what I am doing.Good luck. There is no argument that the system favors women when it comes to these issues. Only a fool would not acknowledge that.

-she wants to go back to Poland. -you are going to keep her in the UK against her will because you want to be a father.

Idk about UK laws, but in the US, the laws favor the man. Though it's subtle. A mother can't cut ties with an abusive spouse or partner completely, he always has rights to visitation and to block her from moving to a better place with the kids, assuming she's lucky to have $ and to get full custody. And she can't just take the kids and run away from an abusive situation, that's called "kidnapping". Oh, but if she stays, she's labeled a "bad mother" by society. Since learning the US laws, I fully sympathize with women on this matter. I doubt the UK laws are much different.

If you are "offering" her child support and she is turning it down, I assume you are being a good father and putting the money into a bank account for the child in the future, right? Of course you are. Because if you are going to take this court, that's what they'll have you do anyway.

Also, if she has no family or support system in the UK where she is and where you want the child to be, that's not really fair to her or the child. The child first learns love and all other things from the mother, then the mother's relationship with the father, then the child learns from the father. It's been studied for years the intricacies of a child's psyche, and even though it hurts mens' pride, that's what male and female psychologists have found. What is it about the child moving to Poland that bothers you, exactly?
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #18
Hi Polishmama

I can't comment on the law as I am not a legal expert, but both men and women can claim the law favours the other sex from what I have heard.

The money is there ready and waiting, as when all of the issues are resolved I expect to pay child support going forward and what has been refused in the past.

I am not stopping my ex from going to Poland, but just want to make sure I have legal rights as children do need their fathers. Don't worry you haven't hurt my masculine pride about children needing their mothers first, that is a simple fact when it comes down to breast feeding the child. The only thing that concerns me about my ex's return to Poland with our child is that I will be disadvantaged in Polish law until I am clearly recognised as the father. Apart from that I am happy for my child to return to Poland once I have parental rights, visitation agreed and all legal issues resolved.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #19
I'm glad you could read that and not assume negativity.

Like I said, I'm unfamiliar with UK laws. But in the US, a mother cannot flee an abusive relationship with her kids, she has to prove without a doubt the extent of abuse and the man still gets visitation. If you are an abuser, why you should have the right to continue to see the people who you abused is beyond me. It comes down to criminals having rights and children having none.

I would suggest looking deeply and objectively about your relationship with the mother. Also, were you there for the birth? Sometimes, relationships crumble because we don't view it from the perspective of the other person. Sometimes, it's the other person's fault. We don't know. She's not here to tell us her side. And after all, in the end, it's "three sides to every story: his side, her side and then the truth".

Whatever you do, I wish the child good luck because as a mama, to me that's what should matter most.

alternativefamilylaw.co.uk/en/children/parental-responsibility.htm

I don't know how accurate this is regarding UK laws, but if it's correct, unless she fills out a form at court with you consenting to you being the father, you are not and cannot become the father and force any decisions about the child. As it should be. Sorry, but otherwise, any psychopath could claim to be the father and force a woman and child into a dangerous and abusive situation. In the US, of course, it's different. And I don't feel like discussing US law anymore because it just frustrates me to no end.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #20
And after all, in the end, it's "three sides to every story: his side, her side and then the truth".

spot on Polishmama..;)
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #21
Hi Polishmama

You weren't being rude in anyway just voicing your opinion so there was no way that I could take it negatively. ;-)

I agree with you about looking at the relationship with the mother as she appears to have changed radically. I have been very patient according to my friends and have tried to see it from her perspective many times, trying to tread the path of reason and calm, whilst tearing my hair out in private. I liked your comment about three sides to every story and I agree.

All I really want is some advice on trying to settle this in a reasonable manner, whilst my ex won't listen to reason or consider what is best for our child. The child is paramount in this and always will be, but how can I make my ex see that our child needs a father and I just want to look after this child.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,671
27 Mar 2012  #22
Do you think she might have another man lined up? Perhaps an ex in Poland?
With no wish to cause offence, is the child 100 per cent likely to be yours?
Why did she not want you to put your name on the birthlines?
I wish you the best, kids do need fathers.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #23
I have to say, though, that it is easier for a child to adapt to living condition changes, such as moving to another country, etc. than it is for an adult. Also, the most important thing for a child's well-being is a happy mother. I cannot stress that enough. A father, sure, that's great. Staying where they were born, sure, that's great. But if the child's mother is not happy, none of those things matter. That's just how it goes. Perhaps she hates living in the UK? Perhaps when she visited Poland, she realized what she was missing, what her child was missing, where her happiness and heart belonged? In the end, like I said, unless she wants to acknowledge you legally as the father, it looks like you have no rights in this matter. As an unhappy mother as well (not unhappy that I have children, mind you, far from it!), I can tell you I envy her situation.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #24
Hi Rozumiemnic

Not sure if she has another man in her life, that is her personal business. My concern is with our child.
Worked out the dates so pretty certain of being the father.
She didn't want to put me on the birth certificate as it stops her freedom of movement and allows me a say in how the child is brought up etc. This is what she told me.

Thanks again!

Hi Polishmama

I agree about the mother being happy and this rubbing off on the child, and this has made me think on several occassions that maybe I should exit the picture. However, my father walked out as did my ex's so I know from personal experience that children need their fathers. Whilst I wish my ex all the happiness in the world I want my child to be happy first and foremost, so I believe that both parents must act in the child's best interests to achieve this, even if they dislike each other in private. It is a shame to me that I have to take this to court to be recognised legally as the father, when I would rather put this money towards my child's future.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #25
I can understand where you are coming from. My husband is from a broken home & my own parents divorced when I was a teenager. However, the consequences of our own relationship, while affected by that, is different. My husband won't correct what he needs to in order for our relationship to succeed and smothers me with his control, while he does not want to have his kids have divorced parents. Myself, I don't want my kids to be unhappy or myself to be unhappy. Nor controlled, manipulated, whathaveyou. Though, I recognize something that my husband doesn't: A disagreement is not a "fight". It's hard for relationships to succeed. Especially when the parents are from different backgrounds and hold different ideals.

Regarding your situation, I don't see how the courts can force her to acknowledge you as the legal father, as DNA testing is not considered to be the definition of a father in the UK, from what I see. And, to give further thought to this, a child who's mother felt abandoned by her partner of course will not be happy. But a mother who is forced to stay because of a partner she doesn't want to be with, that's just as bad. Think about whether your father and your ex's father abandoned the home, versus the mothers wanting the relationships to end with them. If they abandoned, well, of course, the children would be unhappy as would the mother, which would continue to feed the atmosphere of unhappiness. But if the fathers kept hanging around, repeatedly exposing the children to an abusive environment, that's just plain wrong. Which is why the US laws don't make sense. They assume the fathers abandon, which is why the father should have rights. But, often times, the relationship being volatile and fraught with abuse has absolutely no positive impact on the child and continued interaction with a pos father like that is absolutely not in the best of intentions for the child. It's for the betterment of the wealthy pos fathers who wrote the laws in order to have control.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #26
Hi Polishmamma

Maybe you misunderstood some of what I was trying to say, or I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, but this is all about the child for me. I want my ex to be happy, but there are two sides to a relationship, and now there are three with the child being the most important. I appreciate you are seeing this from the mother's point of you, but when you say if the mother is unhappy this will be passed onto the child. So this would mean in any case of separation the woman cries unhappiness and the father is supposed to step aside as otherwise this would feed through to the child. No, the mother has to do what is best for the child as does the father. Sorry, but I really take issue with the fact that the father should just step aside to make the mother happy. Sorry, if I have misunderstood what you are trying to say or if this offends you, but the child must always come first.

As for the DNA test that is a pre-cursor to gaining parental responsibility in the UK. However, in Poland my Polish friends tell me that a valid DNA will also allow you to be added to a birth certificate which is more preferable to having parental rights in the eyes of the Polish legal system.
mafketis 20 | 7,162
27 Mar 2012  #27
My ex seemed to change after she went home for a visit and just pushed me away

Ding, ding, ding!

My best guess is she re-started a relationship with some old boyfriend while there and she doesn't want you on the birth certificate because that would get in the way of playing house.

Or ... she knows/suspects you aren't the father. I'd insist on a DNA test to settle the paternity issue one way or another.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #28
No, I'm saying that if the father abandoned the home, of course the kid and mother would be unhappy. But if he's abusive or using his parentage to hold her in a country where she is very unhappy (which is essentially holding her hostage), then absolutely he shouldn't do that. If, however, it's just that things didn't work out and she acknowledges legally that he's the father and has no issues with visitation, then great for everyone involved and it should be worked out amicably for the child's best interest.
OP Anglik1 2 | 56
27 Mar 2012  #29
HI Polishmama

Can we leave behind the abandonment of the family home as that is not the situation in my case. I'm not trying to blackmail my ex, I just want what is best for my child. I want them to know both their British and Polish heritages, whereas my ex is the one refusing visitation and denial of half their heritage. To reiterate all I want is what is best for the child and to therefore have some say in their upbringing so they grow up to be happy and healthy. I really want to work things out amicably, but I am facing an uphill struggle with this.
polishmama 3 | 280
27 Mar 2012  #30
The abandonment I brought up was regarding perhaps your or your ex's issues with your own fathers. It could be that, since she was raised in a single mother household, that it is difficult for her to understand and handle a family unit with the father present. Something to think about, it could help you perhaps on your end when interacting with her for the sake of the child. I never assumed you abandoned the child. If your intent is sincere and truly in the best interest of the child, then I really do wish you luck. Of course, like previously mentioned, your ex isn't here.


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