Urgent Relationship help - wife wants to stay in Poland

There is no way she will be awarded that amount. I took a quick look at the EU E-Justice portal on the recently updated page for Poland and it says that the amount of maintenance per child is generally 300-1000 PLN per month. I imagine that with you having a high salary by Polish standards the amount awarded could be nearer 1500 per child but certainly not much more than that. As Dominic says, don't discuss maintenance at all with her. Take a solictor's advice as to how much you should pay for the moment while awaiting divorce proceedings.

Never say never, particularly if the kids are used to private nurseries and a nice place to live. Polish courts are a law unto themselves, hence why he needs to find the best and meanest family lawyer out there.

Yes, but you have to really screw up in order to have your parental authority completely removed by the court. Merely being convicted a few times for violence again your wife and your children isn't going to do it.


That''s the key from here on. Get a lawyer. The best the OP can afford. Listen to that lawyer. Do what they say.


And then there are the private tutors, the ballet and music lessons, the holidays, the hobbies, the pets, etc, etc.
But even then, there's no way in hell she's getting anything like the 10k she says she needs. Especially not as she's working and she's also been cheating.

@DominicB

I don't think seeking access to your kids while a divorce is pending should be avoided.

That's just cold hearted shyte.

You can't just throw money at every problem either. Maybe he can try and sort some sort of access in mean time.

Get your vision checked, because I wrote nothing of the sort. I wrote that he should cut off all contact UNTIL HE TALKS IT OVER CAREFULLY WITH HIS LAWYER and gets specific advice how to proceed. Nothing coldhearted in breaking off contact for a short time like this.

Are there no Social Workers in this country?

What you describe sounds like Ireland's parental inequality times ten.

Towarzysz Poland is a completely different society to Ireland. You must remember that Communism ended less than thirty years ago and that's a very short time in the history of a nation. Imagine Ireland thirty years after the War of Independence, so early 1950s............

Poland has been in the EU less than fifteen years and although that has made some difference, there is still a lot to do in the way of reforms and dismantling the old systems left in place from the Communist days. It's a post-Communist society. The legal system is based on Roman law, not on Common Law which we have in Ireland and which we inheritied from the Brits. Say what you like about them but they left us with a bascially sound infracstructure which supported the development of a modern democracy. Poland didn't have that luxury.

Well I hear what you say but during the many modules I was forced to take, I also did Bunreacht law too Atch so there is a significant difference between the Irish and British legal systems despite what you say. Until recent decades, one example of this was the Court's strict enforcement of the constitutional right to a home and the general illegality of forced evictions for example. Many Europeans mistakenly think Ireland doesn't have a Bunreacht purely because of the stated 'fact' that our legal systems are the same, which they are not, our one is just largely based on an old legal system but is actually pretty different in areas that matter. Contrary to popular opinion and despite what I think of FF/FG, it is actually a sound document and a very good foundation for a democracy-the article on referenda on issues of national importance and any Bunreacht/EU treaty changes being a very sound mechanism for holding the powerful to account(I know, I know, the 8th is outdated and sexist, but that will be repealed soon using the very democratic mechanisms aforementioned).

Anyways that is an aside on legalities...

I do not think this society is as poor as Ireland in 1950. People have shoes, at least most of them do. The Church has a lot of power in Poland now but I think the Church in Ireland in 1950 was almost like having the Brits back. There is a huge difference imo between Poland in 2017 which has a relatively modern economy and a third world poor agrarian State in 1950.

Poland clearly needs to develop its' social welfare system to be more humane though. I donated my 1% of taxes to the Homeless charity today, not to make myself feel good, but because homelessness here is at least as bad if not worse than Ireland now.

Anyways surely this State at least has a minimal investment in social workers?

The term 'Bunreacht' na hÉireann might might be a bit confusing for our non-Irish friends Ted and let's be honest, even for a few of the Irish ones ;) I too get what you're saying. Obviously Ireland's legal system is not identical to the Brits but there are very important elements of it which do not exist in cvil law, in particular the old thing of precedent which is hugely influential in Irish court decisions. Irish law remains, due to its common law influences, far more flexible than cvil law.


I would disagree that Ireland was ever a third world country Towarzysz but never mind that. I'm not saying the two countries are literally the same. I'm saying that Poland is still in a state of post-colonial reform. One area where they are the same is the shocking overcrowding in living conditions. Think back to the Dublin tenements of the 1950s and that's the picture. I know one family with four kids living in a one room flat, 400 square feet. They actually have five kids but the oldest one has to live with his grandparents because they literally can't squeeze him in. Now that's as bad as it was in Warsaw before the second world war. That's a local authority flat by the way, assigned to them by the council. And as you know yourself people rummaging through bins for food is a common sight here. They're not all homeless either.


One of the big differences between Ireland and Poland is the lack of a social conscience or compassion for your fellow man. Irish people whatever their faults tend to be quick to sympathise and empathise and quick to reach out. Poles are not and that's reflected in their social policies. Also in Ireland, long before the welfare state, there was a long history of initiatives to help the poor, right down to stuff like the Penny Dinners which are still running today.


Yes there are of course but.....again Towzrzysz you're judging it by Irish standards. Things we would consider unacceptable in Ireland and requiring intervention are met in Poland with a shrug of the shoulders. Where visitation rights are concerned for non-custodial parents, the law exists on paper that they have rights but there is no satisfactory way in Poland of enforcing those rights and bear in mind that's in a country which has had divorce for decades. It's one of the things that family law experts are constantly complaining about and saying needs reform:

"The enforcement of visitation rights of the non-custodial parent also needs reform as the current remedies for custodial interference are not effective".

but the wheels turn very slowly in Poland.

atch - needs reform
Many reforms are needed and some have already been launched; others are in the planning stage. The point is that the previous PO/PSL govt was not about reforms or ordinary people's concerns but mainly focused on serving the govenring clique and its supportive elite. Yes, the present people-friendly govt has had clumsy slip-ups and erred, but only those make no mistakes who do nothing. And the numerous reforms actually enacted were carried out in a climate of maximum hostility and international snitchery bordering on Targowica by a resentful opposition still in shock over losing power.

Britboy, I am Polish so I add my perspective here: I would hire a Polish lawyer who speaks English and is experienced in divorces, best in international divorces. He or she will be best positioned to help you because she/he would understand local law, he/she may know judges, their personality and what to expect of them. In general, traditionally, the judge will be on the side of a woman, so you will need to be super careful how you position your wife's behaviour in court, the lawyer will advice if her infidelity should be brought up at all (especially if you have something up your sleeve). Custody is tricky as well, it depends on how old your children are, if they can choose, but I presume, they're under 10 so still small. Wait until they're a bit older. Small kids are judged to be better off with mothers. You would need to show that you will able to care better for them whilst in the UK, showing how much you care about them will count, too. Your most realistic option is to stay on good terms with your wife, convince her that it is her who left you and she is unburdening herself of you, make her take some regard for your financial situation, agree reasonable alimonies. But yes, you need to agree every word and strategy with the lawyer. I suppose if you agree after-divorce visits and she blocks contact then you could go back to court. The courts are not that efficient and law suits drag on but eventually you'd get a resolution. Not sure how bitter you wife is at you but kids shouldn't be a weapon and I am afraid this can easily be the case, terrible on kids. She may set the kids up against you and the only way will be to throw money at her to keep the contact going - don't get dragged into it and think how to avoid it.

Not a bad idea to hire tactically a female lawyer (make sure she is known to sympathise with divorcing men)

I wonder if the kids were with the man legally in Poland because the wife ran out/couldn't hack motherhood would the wife be made pay maintenance?

Seems to me that these laws are inevitably sexist everywhere you go.

Women do walk out on their families too...colour me shocked I know..

I just remember my Dad paying a fortune for my mother to waste then when the shoe was on the other foot and we ended up back with him after she ran out, there was no such vindictiveness on my Dad's part and my mother was not even asked by the Judge to contribute towards her kids lives.

If Ireland was that bad, Poland with all its uber-conservatism must be 10 times worse.

If the kids are smart in this case they will remember if the mother tells lies. I was just 9 when our issues started but I remember everything, more or less, as it dragged on as these things do.

My sympathy is with single fathers everywhere. More often than not they are faced with aspersions cast upon them when they are wrongfully cut off from their kids due to vindictiveness and often lies told in court to a gullible old judge as well.

Hmm, I came across three guys in my dating years who were raised by fathers (it is quite uncommon, though, so I suppose somehow I must have attracted those types). I didn't know why, I didn't ask but I suppose mothers either died, were dysfunctional or gave up their families. I knew also a guy who stayed with father and daughters stayed with mother. This happens but mostly is with the permission/agreement of a mother.

By all means, the Britboy in my opinion (but ask lawyer) should aim high and try to get the custody, if that what he wants, but realistically, he'll get what I mentioned before. So he should work on his kids and wife to get unconditional, unpaid access to kids and read manipulation not to reduce himself to a cash machine in the eyes of his children.

There's no equality in nature...men typically get higher return on their work so are better off working and women are genetically better at caring for children

BritboyByd,

Not quite sure you are be given the best advice on this thread...
In a recent case I know of between two Poles in Warszawa the husband was completely fleeced, after giving away 65% of the family assets. His monthly was set at 2,000 zlots for the 12 year old, 1,500 zlots for the 18 year old and 1,500 zlots for the ex even though she was in employ. All the courts wanted to know was the type of contract his ex had in her new workplace, it was short-term so her income was set at 0. So his end was 5,000 zlots which equates to 50 % of his earnings.Also when he takes his boys on summer vacation its at his expense 100%

does that not seem fair to you? who else should pay when he takes his children on holiday?

That is what I have always thought too.
I have never understood women complaining that men make more money working at the same job as they do.
If that was true then why would employers hire men at all ?

Atch, Ireland always has been a culturally advanced country. Unfortunately culture does not put bread on the table, for the this reason the Irish have been fleeing in droves for a near century. Although it may be possible to compare Poland and Ireland as two countries in which religion and the Catholic church played its role. How is it possible to compare Ireland a country of 4.5 million people to Poland a nation with a population 10 x. The dynamics in Poland are very difficult to Ireland, there is clash of religious groups, maybe you could compare Ireland to Israel a similar sized nation with similar disputes and rights of land.

Being married to a Pole, having a holiday home in Poland and getting over for a couple of weeks a year, does not make you an authority on Poland in any way at all. Live here for a year, immerse yourself in the culture ad understand the dynamics of your surroundings in Poland then comment...

cairnick, Atch does live in Poland.

ROZ,

Did I suggest it was unfair or was I stating the outcome of a divorce case, so as to inform the OP of facts over emotional reactions...

well what you said was , at the end of your post, was that he even has to pay when he takes his children on holiday. So that does implicitly sound as though you think it is a little unfair ,. yes.

ROZ,

She certainly does not inform accordingly. Much of what she writes on this forum is not actual to Polish reality.This is the reason she is often brought to task by Poles on this forum living in Poland.

fgs I was just pointing out that in fact , contrary to your assumption about her, she does live in Poland.

ROZ,

Conjecture on your part...

..?
check what 'conjecture' means in the dictionary if you are not sure.
I was merely pointing out that your assumption about Atch was wrong.

ROZ,

If you are going to act as 'fact checker'expect to deal with the retorts.

please focus on the topic only

OP, there will be many variables in deciding your case should it go to court in Poland. The one thing you should think about seriously is do you start a court case before Brexit or after?

If he earns 10'000 PLN he is doing very well in this country.