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Unmarried couples in Poland = pathology


rozumiemnic 8 | 3,840
16 Jan 2012 #211
Some people seem to have their brains between theri legs.

You make these sweeping dismissive statements about modern life and then refuse to enter into any kind of debate about them.
So, yes, you are right. Some people DO seem to have their brains elsewhere.
Ironside 50 | 11,056
16 Jan 2012 #212
You make these sweeping dismissive statements about modern life and then refuse to enter into any kind of debate about them.

He appeals for higher standards.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
16 Jan 2012 #213
That's a false dichotomy if ever there was one. I don't want to marry so I must be scared of commitment; bravo.

some sort of artificial bind or contract to trap two people together is both unfeasible and unfair

these are your words to describe marriage. If a person thinks its a trap they obviously would want out ...unfair if you think that kind of commitment is unfair I can draw the conclusion that you don't want the commitment.

My word dillusional was used to describe a person who thinks that someone breaking up anothers committed relationship as moral which is what you stated. I wouldn't want anyone to destroy your committment to your partner either ....Does that make me dillusional or immoral.

And the idea that a government may promote another relationship as higher, or more beneficial, just because it's been stamped by a clerk in an office, is to do an injustice to all other forms of relationship and therefore commitment.

The government is not trying to promote any relationship it is trying to document the relationship so its citizens can apply for benefits .etc. They are in no way reducing the relationship that you have. Should a women or man be able to claim multiple partners and receive multiple benefits. The answer is no. The government should not have to document every relationship that a person has in thier life just the ones that a person feels are permanent. This is one of the purposes of a civil marriage. Documentation.

The married women that I know, once they're married, forgo their own career ambitions, some even take it as one of the perks of not having to work. Soon after that the partnership becomes lopsided: she resents having to explain what she needs the money for, he resents the financial burden. She takes much more sht from him than she'd have to do if she had her own income, losses her self esteem and becomes insecure about re-entering the work force.

This sounds more like the diary of a divorced women rather than every married women. There is no reason for a women to give up her career just because she wants to get married. If a women/man does not want to give up her career they should discuss it before getting married. How they are going to raise thier kids... all the dos and don'ts should have already been discussed before hand.

take a classroom 30 or 20 years ago and you were far more likely to see violent child hating psychopaths in charge. Was that a good thing too?

Where did you grow up.....ouch!!

I suppose you've never heard of the quote "also the animals possess a soul and that men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren".

By a no lesser authority than John Paul II. Nice of you to disregard his teachings - and entirely consistent with your application of Catholicism.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand but I personelly loved my pet Kc. Not sure if that made me a better Catholic or not?????

Polonius3: All because people are increasignly selfish and obsessed only with their own pleasure and convenience.
Hm.. maybe going back to arranged marriages and dowry will fix all that.

Maybe we should go back to when women were just property and had no rights...that would just eliminate those problems for men after marriage is over.... bad j/k
EM_Wave 9 | 311
16 Jan 2012 #214
Ah more stupid threads by Polonius3.
Barney 15 | 1,476
16 Jan 2012 #215
Those who don't believe in 'higher things', must therefore believe in 'lower things'.

What a pig ignorant statement!

I remember reading a report from one of the Balkan wars of a young girl murdered; the Journalist poured his heart out describing all the things this teenager was robbed of. What pleasure her family were denied, never seeing their girl grow; Never seeing their girl enjoy reading, music, film, dancing, Never seeing their girl having her heart broken or the lovers she would never have.

Her Family would never see her form herself.

I don’t know what higher things you have in mind other than a cage.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
16 Jan 2012 #216
youngsters from dysfunctional homes srtciken by divorce, signle parents, new daddies, live-in boyfriends or that increasignly 'popular' but often unhealthy family arrangement comprising his kids, her kids and our kids.

So you'd prefer kids to be raised in a thoroughly topxic envirenment by two natural, married parents who hate each other and won't divorce due to social stigma of religious oppression? Unhealthy.

Those who don't believe in 'higher things', must therefore believe in 'lower things'. But how low can you get? Is homo sapiens no different from the dog

As above, so below ;-)
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
16 Jan 2012 #217
Your complete lack of reality is what I object to.

I agree with Polonius and I think it is you who live in a world with complete lack of reality.

Marriage is the only way forward for a proper family, anything else comes from deceit-shying away from responsibility-cowardice-distructive-perverted and shapeless ideologies.

Marriage is FREEDOM with respect to all. Freedom without respect to community and society is anarchy.

Within marriage a person can be free to choose his/her partner ... beyond race and religion. They take responsibility, accept each other physically+spiritually+legally and loyally. This is priceless.

I dont know how loving unmarried "live in" couples claim themselves to be ... they are a picture of incomplete and doubtful life. A great curse for their children, and a disadvantage to the growth of a proper social framework or a national legal system.
southern 75 | 7,096
16 Jan 2012 #218
Marriage is freedom?I doubt most men can feel this liberation.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
16 Jan 2012 #219
Within marriage a person can be free to choose his/her partner ... beyond race and religion

Do you mean that given you have a partner you love you are still free to have someone on the side? But that's ignoble!

A great curse for their children, and a disadvantage

Could you back it up somehow?

They take responsibility, accept each other physically+spiritually+legally and loyally. This is priceless.

Are you a slave to need to have a government that would allow the aforementioned? A tsardom thinking.
sa11y 5 | 331
16 Jan 2012 #220
To think that kids are not given a more stable environment in a relationship between a married man and women vs. an unmarried couple is dillusional

You seem to take part of the statement and comment on it rather than comment on meaning. If you are talking about NORMAL AND FUNCTIONING marriage, than I can agree with you. But I did not talk about normal and functioning marriage/relationship. The post was about "patologia" in Poland. Kids are given stable environment by responsible parents - the "patologia" is far from being responsible, therefore nothing would change if they got married.

In my country (Russia) children who are born out of marriage still go as "illegitimate birth" which would denude them of some rights and governmental financial support

Really? I'm surprised to hear that - I thought Russia was actually quite progressive on those issues. What rights are illegitimate children denied? Interesting to know...
Sasha 2 | 1,083
16 Jan 2012 #221
What rights are illegitimate children denied? Interesting to know...

I may have confused you. Of course they're not deprived of basic rights like to vote or something. But it would make it a way harder to set up a claim for decedent's estate, it would make it hardly possible to get alimony payment, state supplements, rebates and privileges.
sa11y 5 | 331
16 Jan 2012 #222
would make it a way harder to set up a claim for decedent's estate, it would make it hardly possible to get alimony payment, state supplements, rebates and privileges

But surely this only relates to kids who's fathers did not "register themselves" as their fathers not to all kids born outside marriage? If a father recognises his fatherhood on childs birth documents - will it still make difference if the child is born outside marriage?
gumishu 11 | 5,701
16 Jan 2012 #223
If a father recognises his fatherhood on childs birth documents - will it still make difference if the child is born outside marriage?

it won't in Poland as far as I know
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 Jan 2012 #224
This has do with treating animals with respect as God's creatures, not negelcting or inflciting pain oro suffering on them. IT WAS NOT AN INJUNCTION TO ACT LIKE AN ANIMAL!
southern 75 | 7,096
16 Jan 2012 #225
it would make it hardly possible to get alimony payment, state supplements, rebates and privileges.

it won't in Poland as far as I know

Sb else has usually to pay the bill.
Barney 15 | 1,476
16 Jan 2012 #226
or a national legal system.

This is it really, a property contract, nothing more nothing less.

IT WAS NOT AN INJUNCTION TO ACT LIKE AN ANIMAL!

You have nothing to base that statement on other than your own imagination of what people get up to.
Natasa 1 | 580
16 Jan 2012 #227
Marriage is freedom?

Yes, in the same way as War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength.

I doubt most men can feel this liberation.

Some women as well. I see that 'yes, I do' people say in front of the registrar like a kick on the chair person stands on while rope around her neck is keeping her/him connected to the ceiling. A kick, one yes, and the chair is gone.

Or earlier I saw a milder fantasy of opened coffin, person says I do, goes inside and somebody closes the coffin. The kids would be nails in the coffin in that version.

;)

But those are just my fantasies. Nothing similar happens in reality ;)

p.s.
but as we are taught by the society we are programmed, if we are healthy, to be able to love and work. Why was it interpreted in those extreme ways I have no clue. Neither work, nor those insane marriages with clause' till the graveyard tear us apart'.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
16 Jan 2012 #228
If a father recognises his fatherhood on childs birth documents - will it still make difference if the child is born outside marriage?

It probably won't. I am not a lawyer. What I know is that there're so many bureaucratic twists and turns on the way of acknowledging one's fatherhood which one may or may not overpass, that in the upshot it's simpler to register your relationship.

There's also a thing known as juvenile justice gathering pace in Russia, which makes it easier to terminate paternal rights for those who are not married.

What I'm trying to say is that there are many red tapes aimed onto making you register your relationship before the government, make you co-habitation merely inconvenient. But again... that's in Russia. I don't know how things are in Poland.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
16 Jan 2012 #229
who are the government to decide your children are bastards or not?

They don't. Any dictionary will tell you this.

That's you who should decide that, isn't it?

Now your getting it. If someone decides to have children out of wedlock.

In my country (Russia) children who are born out of marriage still go as "illegitimate birth" which would denude them of some rights and governmental financial support. So I'm sort of blackmailed by the government to register my relationship which I find backward

Same in the Usa. but the law tends to fall more on the childrens side of the equation...It makes the paternal father responcible finacially (at least in theory). In reality society fits the bill unless the father steps up. Do I think we as a society should help our youth to insure a better future for all....the answer is yes. Do I think a woman/man should be able to drop kids with multiple partners and society suffer for it ...the answer is no. It is not backward for a government to want a person to get married before having kids. It is the natural progression of things. You meet your partner. you commit to a partner. You register your relationship. You have kids.

"patologia"

Sorry if I misquoted your meaning. I am unfamiliar with this term. I took it to mean pathology. If I am wrong please let me know.

So you'd prefer kids to be raised in a thoroughly topxic envirenment by two natural, married parents who hate each other and won't divorce due to social stigma of religious oppression? Unhealthy

Not all people should get married or have kids for that matter. To answer your question yes I would. Why because the child may learn from thier parents mistake and not jump into marriage with the wrong partner, or learn how to be more diplomatic rather than hostile. Or depending how irresponcible the parents are may learn nothing at all. This is more difficult in the case of divorce (not impossible). Parents tend to use thier children as pawns in an ongoing battle with thier former spouce ( this can be done subtely or more dramatically) This destroys a childs view of the opposite sex promoting trust issues. This in turn leads the child to think that marriage is a bad thing. This simply is not the case. The commitment is not the issue. It is the selfishness and non conformity of the individuals getting into the marriage that destroys the bond rather than the instrument itself.

There are amicable divorces and nasty divorces. Divorce as a whole is a negitive influence on children. It is perceived as a nasty battle.

Marriage is a beautiful commitment..something to aspire to. It is the individuals that destroy the commitment not the commitment that destroys the individuals.
Barney 15 | 1,476
16 Jan 2012 #230
Marriage is a beautiful commitment..something to aspire to.

It is but its not the only beautiful commitment.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
16 Jan 2012 #231
If such fly-by-night arrangements are so good and modern, then why are such households more of a a hotbed of domestic violence, alcoholism, drugs, infidelity and confused, unhappy children than those of married couples?

Prove it; you're a professional journalist.
I was married in the town hall, not in church. Does that mean my wife and I are fornicators Your Holiness?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
16 Jan 2012 #232
If a marriage dies, it should be buried. Better kids grow up in a healthy and happy but less traditional environment that grow up a daily witness to misery and end up with all the hang-ups that entails. Kids are far more likely to repeat their parents' mistakes than to learn from them.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
16 Jan 2012 #233
You think that getting divorced is healthy and guarantees happiness????

Even in an ideal situation where an individual can learn from one's mistakes and chooses correctly the second time around...there are torn loyalties for the child between biological and step/parents....not to mention the time involved being reered by only a single parent.

As for kids repeating a parents mistakes.. that is on the parent not the child. not all people should become parents until they learn what being a parent entails. The same way a person should not get married until they learn the requirements.

teflcat

OP is referring to unmarried individuals. I could be wrong though.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
16 Jan 2012 #234
You think that getting divorced is healthy and guarantees happiness????

A thousand times better than staying together in a loveless and hate-filled 'marriage'.

Even in an ideal situation where an individual can learn from one's mistakes and chooses correctly the second time around...there are torn loyalties for the child between biological and step/parents.

Not as torn as the the loyalties with two parents playing one off against the other in a permanent state of depression and anger but stuck under the same roof.

As for kids repeating a parents mistakes.. that is on the parent not the child

Yes - and the answer is to end any situation that becomes toxic and move to a better and happer one.

not all people should become parents until they learn what being a parent entails.

Yes. Contraception and abortion certainly help, however not everyone is that sensible - some very young and ill-prepared people have kids. There is nothing new in this.

The same way a person should not get married until they learn the requirements.

Anyone can learn - but as we all know, some never understand. Those people should just end their dead relationships before they harm the kids.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
16 Jan 2012 #235
Anyone can learn - but as we all know, some never understand. Those people should just end their dead relationships before they harm the kids.

Has the world got "This Selfish" that it does not understand what parenting is all about. Once you have a child any parent should have its childs self interest at heart 1st and foremost. Dead relationship- who cares its all about the kids now. A person chooses to get married for better or worse- not only when we are young and 50 pounds lighter or when we don't need a lot of money and everything seems within our reach.... its during the bad times too when our spouce loses his/her job and money is tight and our spouce is drinking too much because they feel like a failure...it is in these bad times where we teach our children the most...self respect, perserverence, self sacrifice by helping our spouce through these hard times. Divorce only teaches our children one thing...that thier parents failed to keep thier word.

A thousand times better than staying together in a loveless and hate-filled 'marriage'

it doesn't have to be. There is councelling. Mistakes will be made but running away from a problem is not the answer. I suppose you are an advocate of bankruptcy also. My debts /committments are not my problem let someone else bear there burdon.

Not as torn as the the loyalties with two parents playing one off against the other in a permanent state of depression and anger but stuck under the same roof

You are talking about an extreme case here not the norm. I would not even clasify such individuals as parents and they should lose thier parental rights.Some couples should have thier kids taken away and be forced to sustain the child (financially) in a more loving environment. This is also an extreme solution but the long term damage on the child might be mitigated.

Yes - and the answer is to end any situation that becomes toxic and move to a better and happer one.

Teaching a child to run away from thier responcibilities is not good parenting. Teaching your child self sacrifice, compromise, and love is the answer.
f stop 25 | 2,513
17 Jan 2012 #236
You're preaching to the choir here, but you just got this one ingrained idea that marriage means morality. It does not. We do the right things because essentially we all want best for our children and our loved ones, and to live happy, well adjusted lives. It's when we start legislating morality we get into trouble.
markskibniewski 3 | 200
17 Jan 2012 #237
I would like to know what makes marriage immoral? The union of two individuals is a moral one. It is the shortcomings of individuals entering into marriage that causes the problems. Not the institution itself.

I am still a little in the dark about this legislating morality statement? How is requiring two individuals to register thier relationship in order to receive certain benefits from the government legislating morality?

I mean the government gives us all numbers to keep track of us for taxes/benefits/etc. Is it legislating morality when it gives me my social security card?
Sasha 2 | 1,083
17 Jan 2012 #238
You meet your partner. you commit to a partner. You register your relationship. You have kids

The only thing I can't understand is that why you so strongly believe that registering your relationship is a compulsive step in this chain. As was said it doesn't guarantee one's morality. It won't change you. It cannot affect your children.
Meathead 5 | 470
17 Jan 2012 #239
Duty and self sacrifice is an integral part of a succesful marriage.

Duty and self sacrifice? Does your wife know you look at your marriage in this way? Successful marriage is about compatibility, do you genuinely like each other?

I would like to know what makes marriage immoral? The union of two individuals is a moral one.

Marriage is a civil contract, both individuals have contractual obligations. Living together is an implied contract, after a certain period of time it's no different than a formal marriage. It's morally neutral.

Dead relationship- who cares its all about the kids now

If your marriage is dead you won't/can't make a good parent. Good parenting doesn't occur in a vacuum.
sa11y 5 | 331
17 Jan 2012 #240
spouce is drinking too much

And what if drinking causes violence? You really think it's good for the kids to watch their mother beaten up til she's blue or getting beaten up themselves? If this is what being married is about than your idea of marriage sucks.


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