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I need advice: divorce and my rights as a father in Poland


z_darius 14 | 3,968
24 May 2011 #61
Not a good idea.

Why?

Poland routinely ignores the Hague Convention.

Seems like Kurt is heading towards a major international conflict :)

There is another reason why the idea is not so good, and that is that of word against word when it comes to testimonies. IF (stress on IF) the battle gets ugly there is no limit to how far people will go. So "funny stuff" about stress, mental abuse etc a wifey can say is not inconceivable, and it may turn into a totally different ball game. In the long run it would hardly matter if she was telling the truth.
Midas 1 | 571
24 May 2011 #62
However the case turns out to be, I believe it is in his very best interest not to go in front of the Polish court.

Somehow I don't see Her Majesty's court being very responsive to her cries about abuse, stress etc. after the Judges hear about the 4 bedroom house and her not working.

Just a friendly thought.
Piotr123 3 | 54
24 May 2011 #63
All these laws look very good on paper but in reality it is a maze of legal technicalities and bias. Don't go to Poland because you will regret it! If you have money for it then my advice is to start a legal process in your country for custody of the child.

She will be in an inferior position if she is in a foreign country and have no money to pay for good legal counseling. It is possible that she will realize her predicament and give you a good position in negotiations.

In matters such as these it is always preferable to solve things outside of court. Hopefully you have been prudent enough to take precautionary measures to protect your financial assets. I don't have any personal experience on the topic and have not followed the thread.
tygrys 3 | 295
24 May 2011 #64
I am now pretty sure i am going to stay in London and file for a divorce here

You have to get a divorce in the country you were married in. You can do it in Poland, but all paperwork has to be sent to UK.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
24 May 2011 #65
I mean seriously, do you think that any court would charge her with kiddnaping her own baby?

In the UK? Almost certainly.

And given that it's a pretty serious crime, combined with the existence of the European Arrest Warrants now being in place - she'd be a prisoner in Poland. Poland would most probably ignore the EAW - but you can be assured that the Germans, Czechs, etc won't.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
24 May 2011 #66
In the UK? Almost certainly.

And given that it's a pretty serious crime, combined with the existence of the European Arrest Warrants now being in place - she'd be a prisoner in Poland.

unless she claimed abuse of whatever kind as the reason for "escaping"?
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
24 May 2011 #67
In the UK? Almost certainly.

In the Polish courts, anything can happen.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
24 May 2011 #68
unless she claimed abuse of whatever kind as the reason for "escaping"?

Wouldn't work, not under the EAW system. It's a tough thing to explain - but essentially, any EU country can put an arrest warrant out for anyone else if they're wanted by the judicary. EU countries are obliged to detain and then deport someone under this process - generally speaking, unless you manage to cause a hell of a fuss, it's very unlikely that you'll get away with it.

There's a huge problem at the minute with Poland (France/Spain, I think?) completely abusing this process due to their legal systems using EAW's for almost everything - even one case where someone was deported from the UK to Poland after being accused of stealing from a bank - even though he'd paid them everything owed!

But of course - Poland's legal system being the way it is, it would seem very unlikely that Poland would honour an EAW for a Polish citizen accused of taking a Polish citizen to Poland. Other countries wouldn't care, though.

I'll try and find the article for you which explains this better.
Ant63 13 | 410
24 May 2011 #69
But of course - Poland's legal system being the way it is, it would seem very unlikely that Poland would honour an EAW for a Polish citizen accused of taking a Polish citizen to Poland. Other countries wouldn't care, though.

EAW's have been used in a Hague case in Poland. This was a case where a Polish woman returned to Poland from Holland and was ordered to return under Hague proceedings. She attempted to hide the children and was later subject to an EAW and returned to Holland.

Really all you have to do is ring reunite in the UK and they will give you the advice you require. Do it now!!

In the Polish courts, anything can happen

Not only can it happen; It will!!

The Hague Convention is simply a tool to bring two parties together in the same country where the child was habitually resident in order that custody can be resolved under the laws of that land. Combined with Brussells II it is very powerful. Poland has failed to implement the Hague in the past correctly but it is slowly improving as the old guard of judges retire. They have also been fined on several occassions I believe. Hague cases are dealt with at the High Court in the UK. In Poland they are dealt with at a local level and the judges recieve no or little training. Also the courts in Poland are open to outside influence. For example 2500 Euro can comfortably keep you out of prison.

Article 13b under the Hague provides that a minor cannot be returned to a place of danger but the operative words are "grave risk" which effectively means that the danger must be imminent or extreemely serious and must be proven as such. Statements such as my wife hits the children are not enough. It has to be proven. Countries such as the UK have resources available to competently manage the return of a child in this situation, so article 13b cannot be used against the UK. If article 13b is used for a non return in the UK, it classed as a judicial error and juristiction transfers to the UK under Brussells II and the case is heard in England and Poland would be duty bound to effect a return.
Crow 149 | 9,405
24 May 2011 #70
I need advice on a urgent matter re: divorce and my rights as a father in Poland

you know for that old Latin proverb: `bonus penis pax in domus` - `good penis, peace in house` See? Its old truth man. Give your penis to your wife and satisfy her appetites and everything would be alright. Why would she divorce then if she found sexual maniac in you?!
grubas 12 | 1,390
24 May 2011 #71
In the UK? Almost certainly.

Who cares about UK?None of the individuals involved is a British citizen.All I am saying, is if she decide to go to PL with a baby and plays it right nobody will touch her.I would do that instead on relaying on British court.

So don't speak about matters You don't know **** about. I understand You're pissed off because he did a Polish girl repeatedly and You don't, but please have some dignity.

Yeah like I don't have any other problems.

who happens to be Polish, I judge from the spelling )

I am as Polish as one can be,said that like 10000 times already so no need to judge.Anyway what's wrong with the spelling you are refering to???

I also wonder if Kurt obtained residency in the UK thru marriage to this poor girl?And if I was her I would go to Poland and immidiately start custody case.
Ant63 13 | 410
24 May 2011 #72
Who cares about UK?None of the individuals involved is a British citizen.All I am saying, is if she decide to go to PL with a baby and plays it right nobody will touch her.I would do that instead on relaying on British court.

Wrong. It does not matter what country you live in or what nationality you are. The law in this case would be based on 'habitual residence'. Removal from habitual residence by one parent is only allowed when both parents enter into a formal agreement. Verbal would be insufficient as it opens the door to he said she daid. There are exceptions. For example if you left your partner and children in one country to return home it could be considered as "Aquiessance" and visiting the child in the country where you left them can be considered the same. To Aquiesse you would also have not tried, in any way, to get your partner to return with the child to the country of habitual residence. This does not prevent you from visiting the child, it just means you need to take precautions before doing so.

In this case the events would go like this

Hague application through Official Solicitor in the UK
OffSol makes formal application to Central Authority in Warsaw
Local Court recieves application and sets date - 2-3 months
First hearing - Every attempt to transfer to Polish process will be made
Second hearing - The abducter or retainer usually backs down as they know they can't win. For those that don't, often their legal rep will leave them to it

Third Hearing - Most likely the return order with 21 days to appeal (Mostly there is no grounds for appeal)

21 Days later the judgement is final and the child must be returned. If not this escalates into Police and Kurator visits and if this fails it is possible to apply for an EAW as in the Dutch case.

It is hard to argue this is a criminal act under Polish Law although it is possible, but, more importantly abduction and retention are criminal acts under International Law.

In certain circumstances Polish Law seems deficient in protecting childrens rights as well as parents overseas.

I also wonder if Kurt obtained residency in the UK thru marriage to this poor girl?And if I was her I would go to Poland and immidiately start custody case.

Fails. A hague application kills it stone dead.
Harry
24 May 2011 #73
Who cares about UK?None of the individuals involved is a British citizen.All I am saying, is if she decide to go to PL with a baby and plays it right nobody will touch her.I would do that instead on relaying on British court.

You Know Nothing.

Now go play in the traffic.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
24 May 2011 #74
Many men in the states have woken up to this and the marriage rate in the past 3 decades has been cut in half. That's why the frequently asked question by women is, "where are all the good men?"

oh shut up !!

I know moving to Poland will make me very weak especially with no language too, I really want to make things work

go with your gut feeling, if you feel it will put you in a position that will cause her to have more
advantage and not work with you then stay in the UK.

but dont deny her daughter either, be fair, teach her your wife that its ok to have a seperate relationship
and parent your child. you dont have to be around all your family, thats not independence and she
cant get that if she runs home to her family. she needs to stick it out and both you and her need
to work this out like adults.. dont listen to everything zimmy says , I can see his advice taking you
into a direction where it will wind up a huge fight between you two and thats extremely unhealthy for
a child to see , especially at her tender age..

what she needs to see is her daddy and mommy getting along, even though they live in seperate
homes and seperate lives.. and later on when everything is calm and settled, maybe she can
take her to poland to see grandma and grandpa and all the family, maybe you can go along and
just take a vacation as well.. be friends,, thats the most important.. please let her read this
and tell her that my advice.. woman to woman is to stay and make the best of it.

And for you, whatever help she needs to get on her feet you should help, she is far away from
home and your her support system right now. take care of each other till this gets settled, thats
why you married, that doesnt change, that baby needs both of you now..

you seem like a wonderful man, so talk to her about it, but tell her your feelings on the Poland
issue and take your time and be patient. things will work out :))
Ant63 13 | 410
24 May 2011 #75
And for you, whatever help she needs to get on her feet you should help, she is far away from
home and your her support system right now. take care of each other till this gets settled, thats
why you married, that doesnt change, that baby needs both of you now..

Well said that woman
poland_
24 May 2011 #76
Polish women always compare their husband to friends husbands, goes with the territory. In your situation I would not go to Poland. A suggestion for you, ship in one of her family from Poland, to help you out with household chores / cooking and look after your child. It will free up her time to go out and get a job, also she will have someone to communicate with at home, if you are as good as you claim,her family from PL will soon realize that you are a gem of a person, therefore nullifying her bad PR about you.
Midas 1 | 571
24 May 2011 #77
^^Lol...

The last thing a guy who probably will have to go through a difficult divorce wants is mum-in-law ( or some other family member from the wife's side ) moving in.

Really.

Besides, it all seems rather a case of her not wanting to work as opposed to her not having any time for work.

Grubas - honestly You don't have a clue what You're talking about and I don't have time to point out every bit of Your crappy spelling in the topic.
poland_
24 May 2011 #78
The last thing a guy who probably will have to go through a difficult divorce wants is mum-in-law ( or some other family member from the wife's side ) moving in. Really.Besides, it all seems rather a case of her not wanting to work as opposed to her not having any time for work.

Women want their own money, a women needs friends especially if she is locked up all day with a child, no wonder she wants to go to Poland. I had a similar situation with my wife, when I lived in London. I would be arriving home at about 8 pm exhausted, the last thing I would want to hear about was how many dippers had been changed, after two years of looking after our first child, my wife was exhausted. So we shipped in a nanny from Poland to do the cooking/cleaning and look after our child during the day. My wife went back to work and got her life back and all was good. We also did the same with the second child. Midas, if you don't keep your wife happy, you end up with unhappy children?
Midas 1 | 571
25 May 2011 #79
Women want their own money,

His wife can get a job. The thing is, it simply sounds as if she doesn't want one.

a women needs friends especially if she is locked up all day with a child, no wonder she wants to go to Poland. I had a similar situation with my wife, when I lived in London.

Yeah and talking with one's husband is the way in which normal, not money-hungry women solve the issue.

Calling divorce solicitors asking "how much money can I get out of him" isn't.

after two years of looking after our first child, my wife was exhausted. So we shipped in a nanny from Poland to do the cooking/cleaning and look after our child during the day.

Couldn't You have done that in the first place like all the normal people, without waiting the two years?

And what's with shipping a nanny in from Poland? Is it some kind of a fad? Are they really that cheaper?

Midas, if you don't keep your wife happy, you end up with unhappy children?

From what he wrote a bloody genetic crossover between Baron Rotschild, Casanova and Mother Theresa couldn't keep his old lady happy.

Let me be clear though - not talking about a nanny. Talking about the idea of having his mum-in-law shipped over from Poland so she can "help out". A nail in the coffin, that's what it will be.

They'll gang up on the bloke and pretty much tag-team him to death.

Seriously, don't delete my head-butting with anti-semites, it is not like I'm calling the defamation league guy or sth.
tygrys 3 | 295
25 May 2011 #80
unless she claimed abuse of whatever kind as the reason for "escaping"?

Not if the court order states that the child should have visitations with either parent and if one parent doesn't follow the court order, then it's contemp of court and the other parent will be liable and could get arrested.
OP Kurt 2 | 29
25 May 2011 #81
Grubas- well you come across in your comments as someone that clearly has no clue about what his talking about, I wont go down to your level, I am here to get opinions from other people to understand my situation better.

on the bright side.. If things does go to court, i would pray for you to be my wifes lawyer, by the sounds of it you have a full proof plan :-) enjoy ur day!.

@Piotr123- Thanks for your comments, first and foremost my intention is not to remove my child from her mother by fighting for full custody.

As a parent i acknowledge the importance of having both parents in the childs live even if its not under one roof.

As for the relationship between my wife and I, I still hope it can be salvaged but I cannot based my actions going forward of hope and love. i feel i have to be realistic about the situation and protect myself and the relationship with my daughter from a legal stand point. and the UK will be the best place to do it because this is where we have been living for the past 6 years..

@ patricia19. That was very good advice i will definately take it on board xx

@ Midas- she has her mother and brother in the UK comes and visits frequently however they do not offer support in terms of looking after the baby the last year my mother in law would look at her once a month during the weekend which is greately appreciated. my wife is not isolated she has a large group of Polish friends with children who she hangs out with everyday..... if there was a family member i could bring here i would in an instant but they all going on with there own lives. inlaws are seperated.

warszawski[/

You are right about a wife needing more time to herself and being happy...
our child is going to nursery and will attend school in a few months, most of our friends who have kids both parents worked full time and rotated their shifts so one parent can alwas spend time with the child.

living in a foreign country and raising kids will never be an easy task but these are things that needed to be considered from both parents, the nappy changing and waking up during the night is over and has been for awhile, i believe as an individual if you wish to progress and do something for yourself you will need to get up and do it, spending all your free time with mates and complaining that this is not good and that is not good is not a good recipe, moving to another country will also not solve any of your problems at the moment it does seem like a good idea because all your focus and energy is on a new experience but once the excitiment has faded and the reality of life in Poland kicks in you are left with the same problems. I feel its best to resolve things now separation or no separation, In the UK as a single mother will get good financial support and thats not including Child support payments from the ex father.

What support would the goverment give a single mother in Poland? families have their own life to consider and kids,

Patrcias words has had an impact on me today.

[b]Midas

Let me be clear though - not talking about a nanny. Talking about the idea of having his mum-in-law shipped over from Poland so she can "help out". A nail in the coffin, that's what it will be.

They'll gang up on the bloke and pretty much tag-team him to death.)

Midas, this has happened to someone i know who was not married to a Polish woman but had a daughter with her and they lived together. she sold the idea that my mom could come live with us and help with the child, they are now seperated because, they did team up against him, they always spoke Polish in the house and they could speak english. as a dad he was always critised about what he was doing etc...

bottomg line, he got kicked out, mother in law and ex girlfriend living in a place that his still paying for "for the sake of his daughter"

given the opportunity woman will finacially rape you and as a farther you will do anything when you hear the words but what about our child and woman AND not all but they use that as a bargaining tool against men.
poland_
25 May 2011 #82
Couldn't You have done that in the first place like all the normal people, without waiting the two years?

And what's with shipping a nanny in from Poland? Is it some kind of a fad? Are they really that cheaper?

A bit of a contradiction here, in our case my wife wanted to spend the time bonding with our child, bringing in a full time nanny was not an option, she wanted to consider at the time. My wife is Polish and I am British, bringing in a Polish nanny was natural as her mother tongue is Polish.

In the UK as a single mother will get good financial support and thats not including Child support payments from the ex father.

Its not about the money, it is about everyone being happy, living on the social in the UK, may not be your wife's idea of happiness, she would probably be happier living in Poland, surrounded by her family, so they can assist in the bringing up of your child, although this situation may not suit you.

given the opportunity woman will finacially rape you and as a farther you

If you lived in Poland, you can have separation of your assets by law, all you do is write up a contract, I have already done this. I believe there is no smoke without fire, Kurt if your wife is unhappy there must be a root of the cause...
OP Kurt 2 | 29
25 May 2011 #83
@ warsawki.. my wife is unhappy, because she does not enjoy the UK, she feels she cant do anything here, she wants to go study in Poland and she feels she does not love me anymore..

Note I have not cheated, nor have I abused her physically or mentally, what I have done was in the first 2 years of marriage i was not there as a farther as I should have been or as much as i could have been or as much as other farthers, i spent allot of time working and trying to get our finances stable when we met we lived in a single room fortunately it was with people when knew and they were good. my focus was to get us out of the rut and in my pursuit to gain finacial freedom at the time i neglected my wife that is what she tells me and i agree. i did also after work on a friday go to the pub for a few beers with work colleagues which is common in the city.. take also into account my wife during this time only had responsibilitie of raising our child, she did not cook, did not pay bills, did not go grocery shopping.

I realize the implications that 2 years might of had, 2 years following that I was home,finances were stable.i bath my daughter every second night, put her to bed, take her out alone so I have improved and i have changed but 4 years later i am now faced with oh but u were`nt there enough. i cannot change what has happened that far in the past and i have made allot of effort to make up for not being there as much, and my wife goes to Poland atleast 4 times a year and i found a letter more than a 1000 words long to another guy in Poland she wrote to him.

I appreciate that this is my side of the story and you are right to want to find out the root of the "evil" in conclusion i think my wife mentally has never really left Poland, thats why she has not enrolled in a university or done anything to start studying in the UK on the other hand i am building a live here so we are pulling in different directions. my wife never worked since our child was born and she said she wants to wait until our child starts school which is this year, now the time has arrived i was hoping she 1 would try to find a job to or start studying in the UK either one- her decision was, to study in Poland part time which will require her to fly to Poland every second weekend... i dont see the logic,

(Its not about the money, it is about everyone being happy, living on the social in the UK, may not be your wife's idea of happiness, she would probably be happier living in Poland, surrounded by her family, so they can assist in the bringing up of your child, although this situation may not suit you.)

Re. you comment above: yes I agree living on the social is not anyones idea of happiness, and that is why i decided that I would go to Poland instead of having my wife live here and be unhappy and raise our child... but the reality of the situation is that my wife wanted to leave with my child to move to Poland to go and study and start her live without me threating me that i will never see my child again, and she is thinking only of herself, you say that you have a family then you should know that once there are kids involved one's decisions need to consider all parties not what you feel is best for you alone, if I decided i want to move back to Cape town because its best for me would and not neccesarily for my wife and child would u still agree its ok? This is our child i did not run away when i found out she was pregnant i stayed and tried to do the best i can i was there in the room when my daughter was born and i am still here for her and still for my wife, having my child raised by her family is not an option because I am her farther and she needs me as much as she needs her mother. If i was ok with her family raising her i would have left in the beginning.

Moving to Poland with a wife thats not sure if she still loves you, is not a wise choice it could turn out moving to poland could mend the relationship or it could turn out when we in Poland she decides its over and where does that leave me??? my priority is my child.

I see you playing devils advocate and its ok, hopefully now u a bit more insight in the situation u can understand it a bit more?

Thanks for your comments, its always appreciated.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
25 May 2011 #84
oh shut up !!

Facts are stubborn things, aren't they? (the above link is a typical example of womens ways of arguing)

go with your gut feeling,

That is exactly the wrong advice. Feelings usually get people in trouble more often than getting them out of it. This type of advice is the antithesis of 'LOGIC' which is the correct way to solve a problem. Feelings include 'anger' and 'hate' among other emotional vices. Going with them is wrong

Conversely, logic allows one to work out a dilemma and allows room for thought. Many women like Patty have a problem with this and prefer "feelings' because that is how they handle their plights. Feelings are closer to instinct which dominates the animal world and seemingly half of the human species.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #85
Feelings include 'anger' and 'hate' among other emotional vices.

Hate and anger are not more vices than love or happiness.

Feelings are closer to instinct which dominates the animal world and seemingly half of the human species.

You seem to go with reason in these matters and as far as I can see you are very unhappy and disappointed. Someday you will find Her. Just don't use too much of your frontal cortex :)
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
25 May 2011 #86
Hate and anger are not more vices than love or happiness.

If you are comparing "hate and anger" to "love or happiness" as being somehow equivalent than there is no arguing with you. I consider the latter virtues. The former handicap the individual who is inhabited by them.

You seem to go with reason in these matters

Yes! I consider all attempts to use 'reason', 'logic', linear rationality, and common sense as positive contributing (moral) standards which help uplift the human condition.

as far as I can see you are very unhappy and disappointed.

Evidently, you can't see very far.

Someday you will find Her. Just don't use too much of your frontal cortex :)

Oh, I've found "Her" many times; actually, too many times.
So you've heard the rumors about my huge frontal cortex eh?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 May 2011 #87
Yes! I consider all attempts to use 'reason', 'logic', linear rationality, and common sense as positive contributing (moral) standards which help uplift the human condition.

Agreed. But in matters of heart everything is not clear-cut by rationale.

So you've heard the rumors about my huge frontal cortex eh?

Is it between your legs? ;)

Oh, I've found "Her" many times; actually, too many times.

That's the problem: your infamous cortex is hyper-excited. I see quite well, ZIMMY. One is not p*ssed at women forever unless one's b*utt suffered a few strokes. Mine did and I sense it here ;)
poland_
26 May 2011 #88
@ warsawki.. my wife is unhappy, because she does not enjoy the UK, she feels she cant do anything here, she wants to go study in Poland and she feels she does not love me anymore..

Seems like studying is just the excuse to get out of the UK.

my wife wanted to leave with my child to move to Poland to go and study and start her live without me threating me that i will never see my child again,

So if she is threatening and unreasonable, its time to get yourself a dictaphone and start recording the conversations you have, when she is blackmailing you, once you have taped 3 or 4 of the conversations, sit her down and make her listen to her own verbal abuse/diatribe, then inform her they are going in your safety deposit box, in case of a court case. That will put the wind up her.
Ironside 50 | 11,266
26 May 2011 #89
Yeah and talking with one's husband is the way in which normal, not money-hungry women solve the issue.

You are obviously not married, and your opinions are unsound.
warszawski talks a lot of sense here.

Kurt - sort that out - maybe she needs help - I mean she could be in some kind of mental state which confuses her.

Worth to consider - ie if you want to keep her. Also gut feelings are not enough - look for the help of professionals .
grubas 12 | 1,390
26 May 2011 #90
start recording the conversations you have,

Is this legal?


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