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Why do so many Polish strive to be accepted by the West?


Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #1
Go West? How about go East? Why not? Why do so many Polish feel that Western culture is superior and why do they try to outdo each other in chasing the ideal that in their minds is the West? Partly, it is because many people can not think for themselves, and partly because Westerners reinforce this viewpoint through their opposite way of thinking. Westerners think that they are the world's pioneers in terms of ethics, life style, finances and in general every aspect of human behaviour.
cms 9 | 1,272
12 Dec 2017  #2
I think the main reason that they strive to be accepted by the west is that the 40 years of rule from the east between 1945 and 1989 was a disaster.

It started with rapes and destruction, confiscation and murder and it finished with Poles having to queue in the cold for every day necessities.
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #3
A lot of Polish seem to think that being European is to embody Western European model of living, relating to others. This view is formed subconsciously - not many will even ask themselves why they think this way. It is like adopting medical procedure without knowing its rationale.
cms 9 | 1,272
12 Dec 2017  #4
But many of them know the rationale, because they can remember Soviet rule. They can remember standing in line in the snow at Christmas for a few bitter Cuban oranges. Nothing on the TV, in fact no TV. Plenty of flaki.
SigSauer 4 | 413
12 Dec 2017  #5
@Ktos

I think a hybrid is what Eastern European nations are striving for, at least that is what seems to be put into practice. Western European living standards, but with traditional values. I don't think that its debatable that Western medical standards are the best in the world, and therefore the status quo. People after all are not queing up to go to Slovakia for the most cutting edge and beneficial surgeries, quite to the contrary. For instance, you could do without the superstitions that sitting on cold surfaces in and of itself somehow gives you a magical disease for which there is no name, that is quite ridiculous really. Certainly capitalism as a system of economics has lifted more people out of poverty, and has created more wealth than any centrally managed government economy ever could hope to. The maxim that "if you want more of something subsidize it, and if you want less of something tax it," has rung true throughout the last century. We know that government is wholly incapable of picking winners and losers, and surely greater economic freedom to engage freely in contracts with other people has proven to be the best system of economic development. The idea of freedom of association and property rights has one the debate throughout the last 100 years, based solely on the evidence.

Communism for instance, is a great theoretical system when examined on paper. But, what we know through all of the times humans have attempted this, is that it leads to a contraction of economic growth, and more worryingly authoritative and autocratic governance where an inevitable contraction of human freedoms occurs. So I'm not sure that the east has provided humanity with lessons on how to govern other human beings which anyone in their right mind would ever want to emulate. No one has done as much to advance the idea of human rights and dignity, as much as western European and nations based off of that culture (US/NZ/AUS/UK/DE/FR).
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,462
12 Dec 2017  #6
Not among fobs or even 1st gen in the us or uk. Polonia prefer those countries bc of thr high paying jobs but a lot have moved back or have second homes in pl
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #7
But many of them know the rationale, because they can remember Soviet rule. They can remember standing in line in the snow at Christmas for a few bitter Cuban oranges.

Jesus Christ! The view is typical of a "well informed" foreigner. No tv??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Flaki?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Is standing in the queues your definition of life's real tragedy (because you repeated it as a reason in your whole two posts)? Firstly, rapes and murder began with the invasion by a "respectable" Western nation of a name of Germany - the civilised one. Secondly, the queues were there because those nice people of the West borrowed our goods and for this day we are still waiting for reparations from them.
cms 9 | 1,272
12 Dec 2017  #8
The German invasion did start 17 days before the soviet one so i guess you are right.

Queing for oranges is only the most evocative symbol of the failed state - add in empty shelves, secret police, dictatorship, lack of free speech and terrible living standards. Thats what happens when you have to live like Russians
SigSauer 4 | 413
12 Dec 2017  #9
@Ktos

Jeeze dude....Your initial sentiment was good, but you just negated your points by giving some cover to the Soviet union. Nazi ideology was destructive for sure, and the Germans have done much to atone for that (and still need to do more, according to the Polish government), but no other ideology and system of government has been so utterly destructive to human freedom and human life as the communist/socialist ideology put forth by the Soviet Union and their client states. To suggest that bread lines and such were 'no big deal,' is an absurd notion on its face that is not worthy of discussing with rational well informed and well read people on the topic.
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #10
Don't twist my words troll.
SigSauer 4 | 413
12 Dec 2017  #11
I didn't have to twist anything and I'm not trolling you. I took you to task over a statement you made which was factually incorrect. There were not bread lines and a shortage of commodities because of the "evil west," borrowing your goods. Those lines existed because of the corruption and mismanagement of your respective "People's Republics," and for you to suggest otherwise is not based in reality or historical fact. It is one of the most evil, vile, and destructive systems of governing people that our world has ever seen. Your wanting to offload this destructive inhuman system of governance as the fault of the west, as to why you lacked essential goods and services is evident of a specious logic and reasoning.
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #12
@cms Thats what happens when you have to live like Russians

No, that's what happens when you face the consequences of total destruction caused by war. Hitler spared Western Europe and treated Western captive soldiers much better than Polish captives, so you don't know what destruction means and war devastation, consequences of which we Polish still feel today and rip the "benefits"of every f..... day. Capitalism would only favour Polish people economically if it was enacted on Polish terms with Polish businesses, Polish fabrics, Polish media, Polish banks, Polish infrastructure. Anyways, this is deviating from the topic. Do not make the the discussion between Eastern and Western cultures only as a battle between communism and capitalism, because this way it is simplifying it. For instance, one of the symbols of Eastern culture is its spirituality which has nothing to do with communism.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
12 Dec 2017  #13
I absolutely agree SigSauer, which is why anyone associated with it should be immediately removed from public life, including their children too.

It's drastic, but needed to make sure that it cannot influence public life.
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #14
@SigSauer

West hates to be criticised, it just can not take it, it is a well known fact that, the overblown egos of Westerners can not cope with critique, especially from "unworthy" Europeans of Central or Eastern Europe - the "developing" Europe.
SigSauer 4 | 413
12 Dec 2017  #15
@Ktos

What planet are you living in? Hitler's treatment of soldiers from different countries? Stalin had his OWN soldiers executed who participated in the invasion of Germany because they "saw the west," and didn't want them flooding back into Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia to tell the people how sad and pathetic their lives were after 20 years of communism. The purges? Yea, they were ok. Get off it mate, you sound silly and you're talking to someone who did their thesis on the CIS.

@delphiandomine

I mean, I advocated for something even more extreme then that. Those people are guilty of crimes against humanity, sedition, and treason, and that they didn't have something akin to the Nuremberg trials which ended with those people at the gallo's I think is an error of justice.

@Ktos

Mate, I can take criticism just fine, you just sound utterly ridiculous. Who laid the conditions and groundwork for the invention of the internet you're typing on right now? The Soviet Union? You cast a lot of aspersions, but if you choose to do so and take issue with the west, then you people can kindly stop wearing our denim jeans (which you couldn't get during the USSR), listening to our music, using our iPhones, using our Facebook, or having medical procedures done pioneered by the conditions for which our great societies made possible such advances. Any innovation made in the USSR was made IN SPITE of the government, not because of it.
cms 9 | 1,272
12 Dec 2017  #16
Yes the west does not like criticism but it does not responding by jailing, mudering and poisining critics like the Russians do.

As for Russia being more spiritual than the west i have never noticed that on my visits. Unless by the East you mean Nepal or Tibet ?
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #17
@SigSauer

Sad and pathetic lives? Ask anyone who travelled to Asia and saw how happy people were there, how they enjoyed their lives, their smiles are not fake smiles like the ones you see on the streets of Holland or Belgium. Nobody tells them to smile in the name of smiling to feel good and think positively. They are happy because they do not have mortgages or credit cards, they are not slaves of the banks, they don't commit suicides because they have nobody to turn, because friendships are not limited to institutions (school buddy, work buddy and so on). Just few examples of the "happy" West and "miserable" East.
Lyzko 22 | 6,534
12 Dec 2017  #18
Compared with Russia, Poland has "Westernized" much more, both in terms of her acceptance of the Latin alphabet as well as Roman Catholicism, neither of which was by Occident (pardon the pun!). Considering how much Poland has contributed to European culture, from Kopernikus, Chopin right on up through the 20th century and beyond, it's no wonder she feels herself proudly part of Western Europe! Russia remains Eurasia, therefore a sort of bridge between East and West, a part of the other, while not belonging completely to either one.

:-)
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #19
Yes the west does not like criticism but it does not responding by jailing, mudering and poisining critics like the Russians do.

Hahahahha. Julian Assange fears for his life from the Westerners, he hides in a non-Western country for exposing the ugly truth about the West. Just one example of the one who is still alive and has not been killed by Westerners. And why you bring up Russians? We are talking Poland here, got lost a bit? Polish spirituality. This is Polish not Russian forum.
SigSauer 4 | 413
12 Dec 2017  #20
Don't be daft. What does present day Asian society have to do with the misery that people lived in under 1930's Soviet Union compared to their counterparts in the West who lived considerably better lives, without being executed for exploiting the proletariat, or reading a banned book, or being committed to an insane asylum because your neighbor overheard you saying something critical of communism, or lacking heating oil in the winter, or being food insecure. Literally has nothing to do with one another, and I see that you prefer to play 'what about isms' instead of engage in a rational intelligent discourse, either because you are incapable of doing so and lack the knowledge on the topic, or because you are intentionally disingenuous and history does not fit your prejudices toward the west.
NoToForeigners 6 | 987
12 Dec 2017  #21
Only leftist idiots strive to be called Westerners. The rest of us want to stay Poles.
Lyzko 22 | 6,534
12 Dec 2017  #22
I fail to see the distinction. The path away from the West is the same type of deluded thinking which once plunged Germany into two (LOST!!) world wars.
NoToForeigners 6 | 987
12 Dec 2017  #23
I fail to see...

Unsurprising.

In Europe (ya know... where i live) under EU being "Westerner" means to abandon everything your nation is proud of, change history to be politically correct, get rid of culture and tradition along with religion and become a bland, boring culturally gray state like France or Germany.

Now finally we have a great govt with great social by Beata Szydło and new PM that is eloquent, highly intelligent, highly educated, experienced (he was a president of one of big banks in Poland and lead it to great financial boom) is fluent in Russian, German and English. We can stay Polish and cooperate with both sides now for our own interest.
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #24
Correct.
kaprys 2 | 1,802
12 Dec 2017  #25
Poland is Poland. No need to be westernised.
Historically more associated with the West than the East. The Latin alfabet and catholicism.
We still kept our identity, though.
As for identifying with Russians, well ... are for real? Just a similar language.
Ty jesteś w ogóle z Polski, Ktoś?
NoToForeigners 6 | 987
12 Dec 2017  #26
As for identifying with Russians, well ... are for real? Just a similar language.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't co-op with Russia though.
kaprys 2 | 1,802
12 Dec 2017  #27
@Ktos
k... było zbędne.
Ja z jakiejś innej Polski chyba jestem, bo ideały jakieś inne mamy.

Do you remember the Communist times in Poland. I do remember the last years and it sucked a big time. Queuing for oranges at Christmas and queuing for anything else including the food stamps all year long. And what's so great about Russia now to strive to be like them?
OP Ktos 17 | 456
12 Dec 2017  #28
You see, you do focus on faults of communism, yet you do not see that you still benefit from that system today, for, you have not seen the true face of capitalism. Poland is not yet fully capitalist and you ramble on about oranges and queues. You have no comprehension what real West is like, how harsh it is, how people really live under it, you only see what the colourful media wants you to see. Sunny holidays in Greece, great wages in Germany, clean streets in Luxemburg and no queues. Really? Wake up and see the world, come back and then talk. Or, read more widely and think about it. West is not the paradise you and many Polish think it is.
Ironside 48 | 9,705
12 Dec 2017  #29
Go West? How about go East? Why not?

You're mixing here few issues.
Firstly, Poland is a post-colonial country with all the problems and issues that a post-colonial syndrome pertain.
Secondly Poland is basically an integral part of the western European civilization/culture. Hence is naturally attracted to it and this 'striving' you talk about is a tad naïve longing of a cousin from some branch of a family that is down on luck to be recognized as a part of the family.

Although I must say that this attitude is less common nowadays as western Europe is becoming less and less European and which turns its back to the basic European values. (this include of course USA)

Well on the east you have Russia - which is a separate civilization on its own - a one which is truly allies to Poles regardless of the fact that on individual basis many Poles seems to be getting along with Russian just fine. On a social or state level however that is entirely different story.

Does it answer your question? Maybe we should go a one step further as there is an implied question in your thread - why not buddy with Russia instead.

Russia doesn't have buddies, it has business partners like Germany and China or pawns and lackeys. They do not understand term a junior partner or alliance. It is a one sided arrangement and unstable because depends on the whim of Russian czar.

Czar (could be called the first secretary or a president - makes little difference) in Russia is only limited by the power of bureaucracy.
Which is unlike in any other country. It has been the main power in Russian since Peter the Great (what great about him I don't know).
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,462
12 Dec 2017  #30
On a social or state level however that is entirely different story.

Very true. I hope that changes in the future....

like Germany and China or pawns and lackeys.

China is more powerful than Russia in every way except for perhaps militarily and in terms of land size. But China's economy and population alone make it a force to be reckoned with. China and Russia are currently participating in war games and drills together against an attack by the West. One thing's for certain - the US and Western Europe are in decline while Eastern Europe, V4, Russia, India, China, Iran, etc. are the new powers. Eurasia is where the future growth lies. Once the dollar goes, which Russia and china are actively pushing to happen by backing up a new basket currency with gold (hence all the gold outflows from the west and into the east) the US's hegemony is over.


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