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Are Polish roads really this bad?


Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
23 Dec 2011 #181
I think all major roads should be toll roads here, or there should be the vignette system- pay to use basically. Thoughts?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Dec 2011 #182
What else? there are so many trucks on the road, where speed is usually lower for them than the permitted speed for passenger cars.

That's a consequence of being a major transit route, both north-south and west-east.

I think all major roads should be toll roads here, or there should be the vignette system- pay to use basically. Thoughts?

Hard to say really - I think tolling does make sense in Poland, because it's concentrated on the major motorways. Vignettes only make sense if there's significant transit traffic on all routes - in Poland, cars only really transit along the A4/A2 which are tolled/will be tolled anyway - and trucks are obliged to use the ViaToll system which covers all motorways/main roads anyway.

I don't really see much wrong with the existing plans - except perhaps that Warsaw-Krakow should be covered by tolling (and made full motorway).

Vignettes are also a positive pain if you're not going far - for example, Brno-Bratislava requires a Slovak vignette for all of 50km or so, with no transit vignette available.
OP rybnik 18 | 1,461
23 Dec 2011 #183
the vignette system

Please explain this "vignette system"
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Dec 2011 #184
Basically, to use expressways and motorways in many European countries (especially smaller ones) - you need to purchase a sticker that goes on the windscreen, known as a "vignette". Normally, they're sold for 7 days, a month and a year - though the duration does vary. The idea is that short term visitors are punished, while the cost is affordable for year-long versions.

Slovenia has a brutal one for instance - 15 euro for a week, 30 euro for a month or 95 euro for a year. You can see that the country is a major transit route - and so - they fund their entire road system through the summer transit traffic. Yet those living there aren't really suffering because of it. The yearly vignette is also valid for 14, not 12 months - so it's an even better deal for those living there. They - understandably - want to reduce traffic driving through Slovenia.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
23 Dec 2011 #185
(edit- delph beat me to it)
^basically a sticker that you post on your windscreen which shows you've paid to use the road you're on for x period of time

delph - interadasting, so you don't think it'd be a better source of road maintenance revenue?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Dec 2011 #186
delph - interadasting, so you don't think it'd be a better source of road maintenance revenue?

The problem is that much of the country is still nowhere near roads that would traditionally be included in a vignette - for instance, much of what I drive "normally" is on normal DK roads and not on S/A roads. It also only makes sense if the roads are all built by the state - but they aren't.
OP rybnik 18 | 1,461
23 Dec 2011 #187
Thank you Delph and F4
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768
23 Dec 2011 #188
It also only makes sense if the roads are all built by the state - but they aren't.

I see your point. So what, in your opinion, is the best solution given the current scenario?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Dec 2011 #189
Best solution for now is to carry on with the existing approach - much of the pre-planning has been done, although I'd probably slap on tolls on the S5 Poznan-Wroclaw corridor in order to get it built earlier. Same could apply to the S8 from Warsaw-Krakow. The concession periods are for 30 years (I think) - at which point the roads return to the State. At that point, I'd bring in a vignette system - all the major roads will be built.

Could be one option to bring in yearly vignettes for GDDKiA-operated motorways while retaining tolls for casual users, though. I'd also look at bringing in transit-vignettes for the A4 between Zgorzelec and Krzyzowa - very little traffic is not heading across the border at that point.

There's also another issue with vignettes - it was mentioned to me by a senior engineer at Autostrada Wielkopolska that frequent toll booths (every 100km or so) are actually more desirable, as they prevent drivers from becoming mesmerised on long drives. That's perhaps one reason to retain the tolls and not switch to a vignette system.

Worth pointing out that the road surfaces on new roads tend to be fine.
ReservoirDog - | 132
23 Dec 2011 #190
That's a consequence of being a major transit route, both north-south and west-east.

realy?? ;) but do I have any alternative?? :/ from Warsow to Płonsk is o.k, at least at night or in the middle of the day. Mojor transit rout with one road lane for each direction and to share with trucks...that's something.
Peter Cracow
24 Dec 2011 #191
Country/National roads (DK) class: A, S, GP and G are getting better. They have been extensively rebuilded and modernizaded since 90'. Now only about 20% of them is in bad condition. Example: DK4 Cracow-Lancut, A4, S7.

Provincional roads (DW) class: GP, G, Z are in worse condition but they are under reconstruction now. Example: Myslenice-Lapczyca, Cracow-Busko.
County and commune roads (DP, DG) class: G, Z, L, D sometimes looks in fact like Iwo Jima warzone. Cities and villages are mostly in bad economic condition.

What more, under Russian domination road, building and engineering standards were incomparably low because of money saving needs. For example all existed motorways sections, road bridges, main roads, etc. had to be deeply modernizated after 1990.

Some roads in Cracow and around reminds me areas after heavy bombardment what is irony of fate because Cracow was never bombarded, even during WW1 or WW2. Many roads were rebuilt but there is still a lot of work to do. I work in the centre of Cracow and my office is in the street consisted of a strange mixture of cobblestones and tarmac. You can't name it pitholes, more Carpathians! This road haven't been repaved for a half of the century I believe!
jwojcie 2 | 763
27 Dec 2011 #192
State of Polish roads according to SCC forumers (as of 12.12.2011)

skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1310317&highlight=stan+polskich+dr%F3g

green - good
red - bad
blue - under construction

State of Polish roads according to State Road Agency (from 2010):
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
27 Dec 2011 #193
State of Polish roads according to State Road Agency (from 2010)

Thanx for the map. Wow Swietokrzyskie 3/4 good roads I remember they used to have awful roads driving to Kielce from the east back in the 90s.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
28 Dec 2011 #194
State of Polish roads according to SCC forumers (as of 12.12.2011)

Final say - I'd say. They tend to be utterly obsessive about this, and I trust them.

However, they seem to be actually somewhat conservative - I drive between Poznan and Oborniki Wlkp. every day (I work there) - and the road is in excellent condition. If I drive at night, I can sit at a steady 100-110km/h.

Thanx for the map. Wow Swietokrzyskie 3/4 good roads I remember they used to have awful roads driving to Kielce from the east back in the 90s.

You'd be surprised how much is decent really - even the bit of DK5 between Poznan and Wroclaw that's listed as "bad" isn't that bad at all - it's just a bit bumpy, but you can sit at a steady 90-100km/h there without fuss/danger of breaking your car.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Feb 2012 #195
Yea knowing fully well how awful Polish roads used to be a 'bit bumpy' should be listed as decent. I've had a talk with a friend, an older guy, who used to be a taxi driver in Warsaw for 20 years, he also lived in Germany and The Netherlands, about which country has the best freeways. He said America hands down. Cities like Washington DC, LA, Dallas and many others, with the freeway systems, route interchanges and overpasses.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ay2LIfk8fN0

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f0bmQ8H8HQk
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
13 Feb 2012 #196
He said America hands down. Cities like Washington DC, LA, Dallas and many others, with the freeway systems, route interchanges and overpasses.

Without a doubt. The only complaint I've ever heard about America is the speed limits are sometimes absurdly low.

Having said that, some European cities are doing well - Spain, and Madrid in particular has a pretty awesome network. Hungary is quite decent too (apart from the idiocy of the motorway towards Slovakia not being complete).
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
13 Feb 2012 #197
The only complaint I've ever heard about America is the speed limits are sometimes absurdly low.

You're right. In Pennsylvania or New Jersey the speed limit is 65 mph (105 km/h) but the police is pretty lenient and you can do 80 mph (129km/h) and not get pulled over. In over states like Illinois or Ohio where the speed limit is 70 mph, u can get stopped just for going 10 miles over it, so it's all on the state and how they enforce it.

some European cities are doing well - Spain, and Madrid in particular has a pretty awesome network.

My father who lived in Madrid until 1990 said the Spanish put the money they got from the EU to good use. The motorway system is great, The Madrid metro has splendid connections.

A2 Motorway from Nowy Tomyśl to Świecko...


Michal46 - | 1
18 Apr 2012 #198
Condition of national roads in Poland finally 2011.





SS1313 4 | 12
6 May 2012 #199
Merged: Polish Roads

Are Polish road quality improving? Are the getting safer? Is the infrastructure around the highway getting better?
I love driving.. is it worth exploring Poland by Road...
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
8 Jul 2012 #200
Are Polish road quality improving? Are the getting safer?

Not only that that but according to the stats from official Police website (policja.pl) there are much fewer accidents compared to the number of vehicles on the roads.

In 1975 there were 39,404 accidents with only 1 321 040 vehicles in Poland in 2011 there were 39,594 accidents with 22 million vehicles in Poland! portalnaukijazdy.pl/pl/news/blog/policyjne-statystyki-2011-1975-2407
sanddancer 2 | 58
9 Jul 2012 #201
What about road deaths! Polish drivers are the worst in Europe and constantly blame the road (whilst using a mobile phone whilst driving)
jon357 69 | 18,423
9 Jul 2012 #202
The driving standards here are still shocking, no matter how many new roads are built by the EU. A solution to this problem is hard to find, not that the authorities seem to be doing much to address it.
Richfilth 6 | 415
9 Jul 2012 #203
I drove from Warsaw to Suwalki and back this weekend. On the way there, leaving Warsaw was incredible; the north bypass (Trasa Torunska) was incredible considering it had been under construction for as long as I've live in Poland. And the other side of Marki, the road was equally good; two lanes of pristine asphalt.

And although there are bad spots in between, where the road narrows to a single lane each way, and in appalling condition (esp. around Lomza) you can at least see the new roads being constructed alongside or nearby the existing ones, so it will improve in the future.

The only bad point was the number of idiots leap-frogging the traffic. Six cars stuck behind a truck, the car at the front waiting for his turn to overtake the truck, and then some idiot in an Audi blasts past him, cutting him up, forcing him to slam on his brakes to avoid a collision. This happened repeatedly, and the offenders ALL had Warsaw number plates.

It's not the roads that need to improve, it's the w*nkers in company cars who think they can drive on village roads at speeds that aren't even allowed on the motorways. Until GDDKiA finds a solution to that, Polish drivers will continue killing eachother at a rate far above the European average.
sanddancer 2 | 58
9 Jul 2012 #204
Problem with the Polish system is that it is so hard to lose your licence compared to the UK. 4 speeding fines and it's a ban in the UK in Poland you can go on forever (it seems). Also in the UK the pedestrians have 'right of way' and the road system is geared towards them. Drivers in the UK are more careful as a result of this. Uk drivers also 'self police' slowing down the traffic or flashing at dangerous drivers. In the UK it is unacceptable to drive whilst talking on your mobile phone but in Poland it's the norm.

Unless Poland bucks it's idea up regarding road safety they should be banned from driving in the UK unless they are shown (by passing a test) as being competent drivers.

p.s. The EU doesn't build the roads. The roads are funded by the EU but built by incompetent Polish contractors because the insular poles wont get the french, germans or brits to build them properly.
bullfrog 6 | 602
9 Jul 2012 #205
The roads are funded by the EU but built by incompetent Polish contractors because the insular poles wont get the french, germans or brits to build them properly.

All the major Polish building companies (Budimex, Warbud, Mitex..) are owned by..Spaniards (ACS), French (Vinci, Eiffage) or German companies..
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
9 Jul 2012 #206
What about road deaths! Polish drivers are the worst in Europe and constantly blame the road

Thank god the motorways and expressways are (being) built. Many of the national roads are single carriageways with a driver needing to squeeze by two vehicles, sometimes trucks, just to pass. I saw how scary that sometimes looked, not to mention the speeds Polish drivers prefer to drive.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
9 Jul 2012 #207
What about road deaths! Polish drivers are the worst in Europe and constantly blame the road (whilst using a mobile phone whilst driving)

Nah!! Just drove down through Romania, they have the Poles beat "hands down". I will never complain about Polish roads or drivers again. I am coming back through Serbia and Hungary, I do not care how much further it is, I love my family too much to risk it. I cannot believe they have the nerve to charge to drive there, they should compensate people for having to replace their suspensions and tyres.
NorthMancPolak 4 | 648
9 Jul 2012 #208
Problem with the Polish system is that it is so hard to lose your licence compared to the UK. 4 speeding fines and it's a ban in the UK in Poland you can go on forever (it seems).

Have you ever actually been to Poland?

I'm not sure if it's effective yet, but it's not long ( a few weeks) since I saw a news report which stated that points are going to be given out for even the most minor of offences, like not indicating when changing lanes. Accumulate a few of those, and you lose your licence. But then, you answered the question "znasz język polski" with "no", so you wouldn't have understood the report anyway.

Nah!! Just drove down through Romania, they have the Poles beat "hands down".

He's obviously never been to Italy, either.

If he's British, he's clearly never been to Bradford - Britain's insurance-avoiding capital. I always breathe a sigh of relief once I'm back on the M62, the road back to civilisation.

Is sanddancer a gdyniaguy alter-ego? Certainly sounds like one.
teflcat 5 | 1,032
9 Jul 2012 #209
Just drove down through Romania, they have the Poles beat "hands down".

There are loads of places with worse driving conditions and worse drivers. Things are far from perfect in Poland, but you can see significant improvements year by year. I just wish they'd get rid of all the roadside crosses. I'm sure the boy racers see them as a challenge.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
9 Jul 2012 #210
There are loads of places with worse driving conditions and worse drivers.

I have driven in many countries and have never seen anything like Romania. Overtaking on blind bends is the norm and with a mobile held to the ear.

I spent about 10 hours driving from North to South-East and in that time saw a head on smash, Lorry turned over and 3 trees that had fallen across the main road.


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