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Is it worth returning to Poland in old age?


PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
8 Sep 2022 #31
@Alien
That is 4 or 5 people. And it is no joke. Last time in Vegas I spent $800 USD for two people at one of the top steak places in Aria. While I know Poles think the US is great to make money, and it is if you are in the right place at the right time, it is extremely expensive compared to Poland. With $3000 USD per month passive income coming from the US you can retire very well in a smaller city and never have a problem sacrificing your lifestyle.

Tickets to Rome last weekend for two. Less than $400 USD including extra luggage and reserved seating. I couldn't fly Detroit to Florida for that much for one person. I love the US for many things, but the cost of living is not one of them.
Paulina 13 | 3,769
8 Sep 2022 #32
in NYC it would cost at least 1000 USD.

shock

Damn...

1000 USD plus 20% Tip for going out to eat is only a joke? Or is it a price for 10 people?

Maybe he meant some kind of posh/fashionable restaurant... A steak with truffles with edible gold foil or sth like that ;D
o_O'
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #33
or sth like that ;D

Probably. A meal for two at Sphinx with a starter and wine or beer is about 130 zl.

Not that the people posting about $800 meals actually spend that. Americans love to boast and don't realise that it's seen as tasteless behaviour in Europe.

I once spent 70 Euros for a meal for two (with wine) in Paris. That was on the Champs Elysee. Maybe that's boasting however 30 quid per person isn't a lot as a treat.
Paulina 13 | 3,769
8 Sep 2022 #34
@jon357, I don't think PolAmKrakow was boasting - he was comparing prices in Poland/Europe and the US...
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #35
he was comparing prices in Poland/Europe and the US...

Perhaps, however I doubt more than a tiny percentage of the population there could afford anything like that for a meal. In their lives, ever.

His US example seems an extreme one. I've eaten out in a few pleasant restaurants there and the prices were nothing like that, even in Manhattan.

Just watch Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares to see some more typical places.

There are some quite expensive restaurants in Warsaw too, though Fukier, Stara Oranzeria and Atelier Amaro are just as much outliers and poor examples as $400 a head restaurants are over there.
OP Alien 12 | 1,952
8 Sep 2022 #36
Daily menu for me and my son ( 3 course dinner ) and Focaccia as appetizer with Tip at Ferrari in Katowice 4 weeks ago 120PLN. The only one Ferrari Restaurant with workshop in Europe. Original italian cook.
Paulina 13 | 3,769
8 Sep 2022 #37
His US example seems an extreme one.

Yeah, it seems so... I've checked some random restaurant with steaks in New York - "CUT by Wolfgang Puck" and here's some stuff from the menu:

Hokkaido Scallop 'Carpaccio' - US$ 23.00

Bone In Rib Eye Steak 20 Oz - US$ 59.00

Wagyu Beef Sashimi - US$ 24.00

Italian Chestnut 'Boca Negra' - US$ 12.00

So, a starter, a steak, a salad and some dessert for one person would be $118 USD without wine, I guess. That's $472 USD for four people.

This restaurant is located in Four Seasons Hotel in New York Downtown, so I'm guessing there are probably cheaper places when you can eat a good steak in New York :P
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #38
Four Seasons Hotel in New York Downtown

Definitely. It's a restaurant with a named chef (even I've heard of him) in a posh hotel in their biggest city.

Here's a link to a mid price restaurant somewhere called Vicksburg. I pulled it off Tripadvisor. Starters from about $7, main courses about $11.
rustysriverfront.com/menu
Cargo pants 3 | 1,192
8 Sep 2022 #39
One by me where good steaks start from 89
zmenu.com/le-malt-royale-red-bank-online-menu/

Even in Warsaw there are now plenty of steak places,where good steaks start from 80pln esp the one on Nowegrodska by running sushi restaurant has steaks starting from 80 pln to cpl hundred zlots,plus wine/drink etc will get you there.Same in US is in $ and in Poland is in zlots.

lol difference is that some cheapos dont tip in Poland.I was tipping till 15% but now my son told me that now people tip 20 to 25% depending on the service.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
8 Sep 2022 #40
Jean-Georges in Aria Las Vegas everything is ale carte. Shrimp cocktail starter $28, salad $18, Wagu NY Strip $155, roasted potatoes as a side $18, multiply by 2, plus a good bottle of California Cakebread red $200. Plus tip you are at $800. Comparable quality not anywhere in Poland. Krakow would say Pimiento is the top end here, and you are still going to spend 600 zloty for two and the wine will not be as good. I am only stating that comparably, Poland for fine dining is about 30% of what it is at the top places in the US. Sioux is not in this category.

rustysriverfront.com/menu

would not be considered high end dining in the US. That is more like a mom and pop local restaurant. People would go in with shorts and a t-shirt.
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #41
would not be considered high end dining in the US

Or anywhere else.

It is however typical

I doubt many prospective retirees are thinking about Michelin starred gourmet dining.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
8 Sep 2022 #42
@jon357
I would disagree. I think many US retiree's want to make the most of their money. Michelin stars in Krakow are all over Rynek, and very affordable for someone who retired after investing well. Food, and quality of life are what these people are looking for. I was trying to be nice commenting on Sioux. IMO it is lower grade than the Ponderosa 20 years ago.
OP Alien 12 | 1,952
8 Sep 2022 #43
Sioux is actually Sphinx, in Polish hand but not my favorite.
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #44
@PolAmKrakow
Most don't have anything like the money to ever go to Michelin starred restaurants, either in Warsaw or wherever they came there from.

after investing

The overwhelming majority do not significantly invest.

in Polish hand

A corporate concern that pretend their staff are trainees in order to pay them less

Generally reliable food though, and a treat for most people to go to
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
8 Sep 2022 #45
@jon357
John, I disagree. Americans or English or other western countries retirements are usually at least in the 3K USD per month range. If they saved and invested well, having a million in the bank is common at 60 or 65 yrs old. Poles may not have it that way, but foreigners its easy when you calculate the exchange. Earning in USD or Euro for a career makes retirement easy in Poland.
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #46
@PolAmKrakow
Yet most aren't

Having a million in the bank isn't that common at all unless they were lucky enough to buy a house near London or a foreign equivalent and then sold it

Many many more people , even the overwhelming majority are much less well off. Many have sub-prime mortgages, high credit and a mediocre pension.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
8 Sep 2022 #47
@jon357
I never said everyone would be in this group. People in your group described are not thinking about moving to Europe, they are thinking about paying their gas bills and most will work till they die because they have to. The only people looking or considering a move to Poland would be those people who have had moderate to very successful careers who have saved and invested well.

A million in the bank isn't a lot and it isn't about luck. A million is about $3000 a month income if it is in dividend paying products, without touching principal. Add in another $1000 or more for pension, and then social security, and you can live very well in Poland on that. If you cash out a home with the median price of 350K nation wide in the US, then exchange that to zloty you can buy one very nice apartment or house outside of the city limits.

The money I am talking about is really nothing impressive in US terms. A teacher after 30 years will receive about $4000 a month retirement in the US. Nothing by US standards for income, but in Poland in a small city you are living a great life.
jon357 71 | 21,003
8 Sep 2022 #48
@PolAmKrakow
Very few are.in that group.

A million in the bank isn't a lot

It's unimaginable wealth for most people.

The money I am talking about is really nothing impressive in US terms

Mean income per county stats suggest that it is beyond most people's reach.
Cargo pants 3 | 1,192
8 Sep 2022 #49
A teacher after 30 years will receive about $4000 a month retirement in the US

Plus pension & 401,Most retired teachers I know live a very comfortable life and have houses/condos in Florida and drive good cars.

Earning in USD or Euro for a career makes retirement easy in Poland.

Yes thats what some of my relatives did they have a collective income of around 3/4k USD,paid off house and cars in Poland,lol and now they were saying cuz of gas problems in Poland they will come to there kids and grandkids for winter in States.

In US still a mil or 2 will not make 3k a month with deposits at least and dont forget the inflation the principal is shrinking sin the bank fast.
pawian 194 | 19,809
12 Sep 2022 #50
Polish average wage is $15k. US - $60k. Prices - similar.

Really??? I must ask my eldest son how much he is paying for his course at a renowned university. Strange he isn`t asking me for any funds......... hahahahaha
Miloslaw 14 | 4,637
12 Sep 2022 #51
I did think about retiring to Poland.
Buying a lovely large detached house not too far from a major city and basically living the dream!
It's not so attractive now, I think that Poland is less well prepared to deal with the cost of living crisis, energy costs and the huge,possible, threat from Russia than many other western nations.

No, I will not be retiring to Poland.
Joker 2 | 2,525
12 Sep 2022 #52
No, I will not be retiring to Poland.

I think you would become bored out of your mind after awhile. Buy a summer house and get out of there before coal burning season begins.
Lenka 3 | 2,856
13 Sep 2022 #53
Poland is less well prepared to deal with the cost of living crisis, energy costs and the huge,possible, threat from Russia

Forget that, it's the social care that would be the big issue. Forget the system of carers that will help you at home, takÄ™ you out or do your shopping. Not having family in Poland would be hard as the health starts to fail.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 2,762
13 Sep 2022 #54
@Cargo pants
I am five years from real retirement. I still have business in the US and I am currently buying as much zloty and Euro as I can. When the economy does right the ship, and it will, I will make 20% or more on currency alone. When we talk about people returning to Poland, we are talking about people who have been planning for it for at least a few years. No one just makes a decision to retire in a day without a plan.

The money we speak about, a million or two really is not a lot of money for anyone who saved and invested throughout a career of 30 years or more. A million without touching principal will bring in a nice supplemental income averaging 2K per month. Plus 401K, plus pension, plus social security and you are living a very nice life in Poland. Real estate prices are now coming down. With banks not giving a lot of credit out due to high interest rates, having cash now will put you in a strong position before Spring if you are looking at real estate.

I honestly do not know why more people are not returning at least on a part time basis. But, in Krakow there are many expats from the US, and many who left Chicago to return. Quality of life here is the main reason everyone gives for making the choice.
Cargo pants 3 | 1,192
13 Sep 2022 #55
I will make 20% or more on currency alone.

with liquid cash?How?I get itchy as i have a cpl every time and look to reinvest.I always want to be cash poor and land rich(real estate).you know what I mean...

before Spring if you are looking at real estate.

I know man,as much as I would like to get out of Poland I cant cuz the $ is so strong and to reinvest is so hard,as Poles are still living in La La land and asking so much,but the real sellers are decreasing the prices.Maybe be spring or summer I expect the real sellers will be in the market,lol there mortgages are almost 50% higher now.They are paying almost 11.5% in loans and making 6 to 8% on there investments.This will be the first time that prices are falling in Poland's current history.

Quality of life here is the main reason everyone gives for making the choice.

At one point of time we decided the same but because of kids and my language barrier we decided to stay in States,worse come to worse we will hire a management realtor and pay them 9/10% to manage in Poland as kids dont care they are well settled and make there own.lol until the $ falls which I doubt in near future.
cms neuf - | 2,208
13 Sep 2022 #56
The people who are holding their prices are going to be in trouble once the mortgage holiday ends - but I'm sure it will be somebody elses fault and once again the shrinking number of taxpayers will have to help them out
Cargo pants 3 | 1,192
13 Sep 2022 #57
once the mortgage holiday ends

When does that end?its for 2 months till 2023 right?Still not enough,with there mortgages 50% higher and very less new small/medium investors.I always wonder how many cash buyers are out there looking to invest.Taking loans is not a choice for anyone with those yields,until unless the yields goes over the interest rates.In States its same but for A+ tenants like Mcdonalds.CVS etc,but in Poland there are no A+ tenants and sign only 10 yr umowa that too with options and with a clause to get out of it giving 6 mths to a year notice.All the A+ tenants know that and are exploiting the investors.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,637
14 Sep 2022 #58
@Lenka

Excellent advice Lenka and it was something we thought about as well.
Sylvio 20 | 156
16 Sep 2022 #59
Watch out for your PL bank taking a chunk of your Western pension, and then having to run a campaigne, raise 100 'zgloszenia' and emails, visits to the bank brach to get any of their 'levies' back.
pawian 194 | 19,809
16 Sep 2022 #60
Watch out for your PL bank taking a chunk of your Western pension,

Bs. You are talking about things which happened in communist times, but not today. I see you are addicted to lying coz in each of my posts to you I have to correct your falsities about modern Poland. Amasing!


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