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Why are Muslims seen as a deterrent to Poland?



mafketis 16 | 4,840    
24 Feb 2017  #31

There are like 60 countries to choose from which already have islam as state religion.

Because they suck? What happens when muslims become a large majority is that islam drives out any other competing form of ethics or morality. So debates over morality (a sign of a healthy society) are replaced with conformity to a particularly backwards form of religion.

The suppression of competing forms of morality is followed by intellectual stagnation since science is not allowed to make any claims that conflict with the holy text.

Poland is mostly Roman Catholic but public debates on what is and what is moral are not restricted to church doctrine.

Colonialism is a distraction. Yes colonialism harmed many countries but places mostly became colonies because they were poorly organized in the first place.


Marsupial - | 924    
24 Feb 2017  #32

Worshippers of the moon god are simply put not compatible with worshipers of the sun god. Those following the moon god are not compatible with any other religion or atheists, both are seen as infidels. While Christianity has modernized Islam has not. Btw Turkey came close for a long time, hats off but ofcourse now it's time to bend over again for them. So what we are seeing is a cult based on really old stuff that did not upgrade sufficiently. Just a tool used in many places by despots to rule with an iron fist. That is all it has become in most peoples eyes.
mafketis 16 | 4,840    
24 Feb 2017  #33

While Christianity has modernized Islam has not

Exactly, modernization for Christianity meant opening up public debate. Modernization in Islam at present, however, is about closing public debate in favor of koranic literalism.

The Muslim world was westerning up until the late 1970s when they collectively gave up and decided to retreat into a kind of weird idealized traditionalism (full of non-traditional things like hijab, very much a late 20th century invention).

Essentially, koranic literalism is the entire foundation of modern islam and it can't really withstand much intellectual scrutiny and people are left with choices,

accept that your religious tradition is just one of many or try to eliminate other traditions

accept that holy texts and science don't need to agree or try to ignore science

accept that holy texts are bound to the time and context of their creation or try to preserve the time and context of their creation

Essentially the muslim world collectively is going to the second option in all these cases
NoToForeigners 7 | 862    
24 Feb 2017  #34

accept that holy texts and science don't need to agree or try to ignore science

You know Christians believe that World is about 4000 years old despite the scientific evidence?
The choices you talk about aren't Islam specific.
Atch 13 | 1,845    
24 Feb 2017  #35

Notty is your ignorance really so boundless? Creationists child, Creationists, not Christians. You do understand what a Christian is don't you. The word encompasses followers of all religions which accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Look up Georges LeMaitre the Catholic priest/scientist who first proposed the Big Bang theory. Einstein was present at its first airing and declared it 'beautiful'. The majority of Christians nowadays other than a few weird fundamentalist Bible Belt types in the USA, do not believe that Himself Upstairs created the world in seven days, nor that the world is only 4,000 years old. Where do you get these ideas from???
NoToForeigners 7 | 862    
24 Feb 2017  #36

@Atch
OMG. You give me an exception as a proof? How ignorant can you be. Don't teach me science ESPECIALLY physics. You think I am not aware of Christian scientists? Here you go!

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Heller
I can POST LINKS ABOUT LOTS OF SCIENTISTS OF MUSLIM Religion you ignorant woman. There are Christian people who believe God created world in 6 days (he took a nap on seventh btw) and there are Muslims that don't ignore science and are actually involved in it.

I SAID THAT CHOICES MAFKETIS IS TALKING ABOUT AREN'T ISLAM SPECIFIC!!!
Jeez!

Edit: Ah now I know why you thought that I said it's ALL Christians thinking that way. You thought I generalise because you yourself constantly do that.
Atch 13 | 1,845    
24 Feb 2017  #37

No, you've put your great gallumphing foot in it again. Stop backtracking. You said:

Christians believe that World is about 4000 years old

That is a lie.Christians do not believe that. Some Christians believe it and only a small number at that.
You don't need to tell me about educated, 'normal' Muslims, I've known plenty of them.
mafketis 16 | 4,840    
24 Feb 2017  #38

The choices you talk about aren't Islam specific.

No, of course not. Those are the general dilemmas and choices. Christians have mostly chosen the first and muslims have mostly chosen the second (beginning seriously in the 1970s - the pivotal decade as far as I can tell).

The fact that their are exceptions on both sides doesn't change the larger trends.
NoToForeigners 7 | 862    
24 Feb 2017  #39

@Atch
My grandmother. She's Christian and believes God created world in 6 days. That makes you a liar about me lying. BTW Don't talk about Christians and Christianity when you don't know the simpliest thing about those like how many days God needed to create world.

No, of course not. Those are the general dilemmas and choices.

That's what I meant. Sadly some troll had to interfere.
And yes. Majority of Muslims made and are still making the wrong one.
Atch 13 | 1,845    
24 Feb 2017  #40

As far as Creationism within Christianity goes, there is no requirement within the Catholic or Anglican faith at any rate that congregants must accept a literal interpretation of the Bible, it's entirely up to oneself and as Maf says most Christians reject Creationism. When I was teaching I remember being very startled when an Algerian Muslim lady whose child I was teaching, made some passing comment about all of the peoples of the world sharing common ancestry because of Adam and Eve. I had never heard such a thing from a Catholic. What made it startling was that she was a very modern, educated, Western type of woman, jeans and t-shirts, no head coverings, a very moderate Muslim.

Don't talk about Christians and Christianity when you don't know the simpliest thing

I do know about it. I spent fourteen years in a Catholic school. I know he rested on the seventh but he kept alert just in case..........

Regardless of your dear Babcia, it's not the norm amongst the wider Christian community.
mafketis 16 | 4,840    
24 Feb 2017  #41

Maf says most Christians reject Creationism

I don't know about most..... IIRC the modern Catholic party line is that a lot of the bible is myth. That doesn't mean they don't believe it's true, but that it's god talking to humanity in a way that humanity could understand. Catholics can take the book of genesis literally if they want to, but it's not an article of faith (or whatever it's called).

Lots of protestants have ideas liek that too. And lots of protestants from the US are very much into literalism (and lots of other generally crazy ideas, I used to enjoy keep track of them though I've fallen out of practice).

The crucial point isn't so much what particular individuals believe but how much diversity of opinion is allowed both within and between branches and for individual believers.

Modern Christians can follow all sorts of different models and beliefs, modern muslims (especially Sunnis).... can't. There used to be much more diversity of thought within the muslim world but globalization has put a stop to much of it and muslim belief in most sunni majority countries is coalescing into a narrow Saudi interpretation that is incompatible with science or freedom of thought.
Atch 13 | 1,845    
24 Feb 2017  #42

I don't know about most.

Maf do bear in mind that I come from a very Catholic country and taught in Catholic schools and I don't know anyone under the age of eighty who believes God made the world in a few days.

a lot of the bible is myth

Not so much mythical perhaps as symbolic and allegoric. The Bible is really a collection of early literature.

lots of protestants from the US are very much into literalism

Yes, those are the Bible belt ones I referred to.

what particular individuals believe

Notty was saying that Christians believe (as if it's a general principle of the faith) that the earth is less than 4,000 years old. Now that's a branch of Creationism within itself, the Young Earth society and it's considered by mainstream Christians to be way out there and really cuckoo.

how much diversity of opinion is allowed

You're right. That's the crucial difference between Christianity and Islam.
mafketis 16 | 4,840    
24 Feb 2017  #43

Not so much mythical perhaps as symbolic and allegoric

I chose the word myth because I actually heard an RC priest used the word (an RC TV program of some kind) what he meant was symbolic and allegorical but I was struck by the word choice.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
24 Feb 2017  #44

muslim belief in most sunni majority countries is coalescing into a narrow Saudi interpretation that is incompatible with science or freedom of thought.

This is the huge problem with Islam - the one that are pushing their view through their wealth are the ones backing a truly idiotic view of the world. If they were pushing Bosnian-style Islam, the world would be a far better place.
Marsupial - | 924    
24 Feb 2017  #46

Haha the failed society award!
Najade - | 19    
24 Feb 2017  #47

that picture wonderfully exemplifies why I hate the misnomer "veil" for black bodybag/hijab.

A veil is a diaphanous, lightweight fabric of great beauty, great for weddings, folk dresses or dancing.
Misuse of words should be punishable :/
królzero    
27 Feb 2017  #48

>> I believe reverted Muslims are more strict

What is 'reverted muslim'?
OP johnny reb 14 | 2,265    
27 Feb 2017  #49

I always hear about Radical Islam Terrorists for being the problem in terrorism.
My question is; "Since the majority of Muslims are not Radical, then why are these unradical Muslims not out on the streets protesting against the killings of innocent people by the radical Muslims (ISIS) ?"
nothanks - | 664    
27 Feb 2017  #50

They are too busy defending the un-radical I imagine.

The ignorance I encounter from Europeans: they don't recognize that many (maybe even most) Muslims contribute us (our warmongering) for the Middle Easts current struggles. To them America or Europe - its all the same White Christians.

Based on how popular Islam remains by those that live in the West it is apparent they don't view Islam as the reason for their current struggles. Then you have immigrants that resent their children taking on Western social norms

That is why Americans (we don't care) attitude is actually ahead of the curve because they already recognize this is a War of Ideologies and even cultures.
nothanks - | 664    
27 Feb 2017  #51

A family member asked an extended family member (Muslim European) how they feel about a future with a Muslim Europe and he said it's not something he is seeking but he wouldn't mind if it occurred.

This individual (German born) was showing me videos of the birth rate disparity over 10 years ago
delphiandomine 87 | 15,756    
27 Feb 2017  #52

My question is; "Since the majority of Muslims are not Radical, then why are these unradical Muslims not out on the streets protesting against the killings of innocent people by the radical Muslims (ISIS) ?"

Why weren't Polish Catholics out on the streets protesting against murders by Irish Catholics against Protestant civilians?

It's a stupid question.
OneNation - | 2    
28 Feb 2017  #54

@johnny reb
Who told you Quran says kill all infidel who denied to accept Islam? You must read first what actually written in Quran maybe you only follow Google.

What a ******** question that am i recruiting here??
Don't you have a little sense of humour what I'm telling and your question?
jon357 70 | 12,793    
28 Feb 2017  #55

What a ******** question

Yes. Sad that people judge all those ordinary people, some religious, some not, who are Muslim by the most extreme expressions of it. Those loud and gobby people are no more representative of Islam than Westborough Baptist Church or the Lefevrists are representative of Christianity.
OP johnny reb 14 | 2,265    
28 Feb 2017  #56

You must read first what actually written in Quran

I have and the Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.
Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.
Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Shall I post all 109 verses for you so you can argue further that is not what they mean ?
Marsupial - | 924    
28 Feb 2017  #57

Only muslims deny this. Idiots think we cant read. Fail.
mafketis 16 | 4,840    
28 Feb 2017  #58

Sad that people judge all those ordinary people, some religious, some not, who are Muslim by the most extreme expressions of it

That is true. But beyond the extremist issue, mainstream muslim values tend to not.... jibe well with a European social context.

Most European countries prioritize secular education and institutions and try to stress the social equivalence of the sexes. Most normal muslims don't. Mainstream muslim attitudes on gender relations means that very few women work which goes counter to the prevailing trends across the continent.

So even though the vast majority of muslims are not terrorists their values tend to work against their success in Europe and the failure tends to reinforce traditionalism and self-segregation.

The experiment of muslim immigration to Europe has lasted over 50 years and has failed pretty much everwhere. Why continue it?
OP johnny reb 14 | 2,265    
28 Feb 2017  #59

mainstream muslim values tend to not.... jibe well with a European social context.

I'm for giving Muslims the same rights in my Country that they give Christians in their home Country.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
28 Feb 2017  #60

their home Country.

So they all come from one country?




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