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Is multi-culti in Poland bankrupt?


kondzior 12 | 1,115
27 May 2013 #31
@Delphy:If relevant countries decide to do it, I would understand.

There has never been a successful multicultural society in the long term. None. You can't name one that hasn't, or will not, end in either bloodshed or the oppression of a minority (and in many cases, the majority slowly, slowly turns into a minority.. like the Egyptian copts.).

If we aren't the ones doing the oppression, we will be the ones that will be oppressed in the future. That's all that needs to be said about human nature. It's not about racism, or the belief of the superiority of a race, ethnic group, or culture, but simply a matter of survival. This is where people like the nazi got it wrong, it's not about whose superior, it's just about your will to maintain your own -insert people, culture, et cetera here- and your standing in society.

Si vis pacem, para bellum. Humanity doesn't exactly work with good intentions. The naive will perish.

The freedom we built in western societies will backfire.
Ironside 49 | 10,583
28 May 2013 #32
no. I won't. You know what.

As your post have been edited by Mod I cannot judge its content properly.
From what you are saying some churlish behavior which I do not condone in the slightest you are using to justify your swiping generalizations. I could call it racism or xenophobic attitude or pigheadedness and lack of flexibility I could if I were you but I'm not.

You have your views and your way of seeing things and if you see Poles in such a light - God speed.
I'm just point out to you that your reproof to Poles for not embracing, comply with some silly ideology and claiming that it is exclusively Polish traits was funnily enough border line blanket statement according to the Mod. According to me it was in fact blanked statement for which you refused to apologize.

Typical double standards in action. Why don't you practice what you preach?
ifor bach 11 | 152
28 May 2013 #33
There has never been a successful multicultural society in the long term. None.

The United States seems pretty successful, for example.

If we look at the EU, the richer and more successful nations with in it seem to be the multicultural ones.

The basis of your argument appears to be ignorance and prejudice.
Ironside 49 | 10,583
28 May 2013 #34
sorry, but this has to do with the "Polish are never wrong" phenom that exists in this country. The inability to see anybody else's perspective but their own.

I don't think that such phenomena is exclusive Polish. I would call that inability but rather unwillingness.

And there is a double standard that exists here- no immigrants wanted in Poland but they have the right to work and live and immigrate if they want to. They have the right to set up mini villages abroad, keep their language, schools and churches. Polish immigration.

Do you really think that is another strictly Polish trait? Think again!

Look at how much English has pushed its way into common language.

Well those on the top are mostly Soviet Poles so they do not really care about the language purity.

Immigrants such as Vietnamese are not going to change Poland.

Given the unprecedented scale of emigration and migration and the fact that Polish economy is shrinking in fact there is wonder why some people would like to immigrate to Poland. One would think that it has something to do with the EU.

Anyway you are mixing issues here. Immigration and multi-multi are a two different things. Also standards or behavior of some individuals do not reflect a state policy.

Mixing all those together you just came up with your personal prejudiced opinion about Poles and your own double standards- can you see that?

The United States seems pretty successful, for example.

The USA is a half of the continent build on immigration and still there were times when anti-immigrant sentiments took over. Also the USA is very sparsely populated if you compare they with Europe.

If we look at the EU, the richer and more successful nations with in it seem to be the multicultural ones.

what was first there, success and colonies or immigrants and then success and colonies. Anyway success is a question of definition I don't think that those nation are successful.
newpip - | 140
28 May 2013 #35
I have an opinion based on living here for 12 years and my experiences. Over all I like living here and I like the people but some things are beyond frustrating. Personally, I don't care what Poland does with immigration or multi culti but I am tired of the double standard. If Poles don't want different cultures living in Poland then they themselves need to stop immigrating abroad.
Varsovian 92 | 634
28 May 2013 #36
If we look at the EU, the richer and more successful nations with in it seem to be the multicultural ones.

Horse / cart problem. Rich countries attract immigrants.
To pick up on an earlier point, Chechens appear over-represented in organised crime, Vietnamese in mobile phone crime, Chinese and Nigerians in drug-related crime. (That's information from ERA fraud unit and a high-ranking officer in the security serviices I know well.)

But overall, Poland doesn't face a problem of non-Europeans violently rejecting their host country.
Britain, too, wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for the fact that the violent fanatics have reached critical mass and can hide and disappear in sympathetic ghetto surroundings. Meanwhile, right-on people proclaim the wisdom of "fostering diversity" by creating circumstances in which disaffected ghettos can arise.

Sweden's dilemma is only mildly amusing because they went out of their way to be welcoming to non-European immigrants and can't understand why they have riots in places with decent accommodation and pleasant surroundings.
Ironside 49 | 10,583
28 May 2013 #37
If Poles don't want different cultures living in Poland then they themselves need to stop immigrating abroad.

There is not such connection. That is Europe not Canada. \If you don't understand that it is European trait.
Anyway Poland had different cultures living in Poland for centuries and some of them wanted to part ways taking with them chunks of the land, So western perspective of the last 300 years are just still not enough to make judgment on Poland and to impose their views on poles either. We been there and we done it.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 May 2013 #38
If Poles don't want different cultures living in Poland then they themselves need to stop immigrating abroad.

I actually found the beginning of your post amusing because more or less, I have similar views but this last one just doesn't hold water imo.

It's unfair to put blame/responsibility of accepting this multi-culti horsesh*t on the shoulders of those who have remained in their country. If we're talking about those who've immigrated/emigrated then they are fair game but not those who've stayed put.
Harry
28 May 2013 #39
Vietnamese in mobile phone crime

That goes back to the days in the 1990s when TPSA was charging more than 25zl per minute for calls to Vietnam and the local community responded in a fairly predictable way.
ifor bach 11 | 152
28 May 2013 #40
Britain, too, wouldn't be in this mess

Britain isn't really in a mess, though, is it. If things are as you suggest, why do so many Poles wish to emigrate there? And so few wish to make the return journey?

Of course, rich countries attract immigrants. Rich countries are successful ones
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
28 May 2013 #41
Anyway Poland had different cultures living in Poland for centuries and some of them wanted to part ways taking with them chunks of the land,

Did they? Who?

It's unfair to put blame/responsibility of accepting this multi-culti horsesh*t on the shoulders of those who have remained in their country.

Who votes for it? The people.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
28 May 2013 #42
Why is multiculturalism only being pushed in new world countries and Europe?

When did the people vote for multiculturalism? Did any political party come out and say in their election manifesto - hey gais vote for us and we shall flood working class areas with cheap labour and unemployable third worlders?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
28 May 2013 #43
Why is multiculturalism only being pushed in new world countries and Europe?

Who else is going to do the crap, low paid jobs?
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
28 May 2013 #44
Cull the welfare state and Europeans will regain their work ethic.

We cut welfare by half for the under 25s here. Now when I go into a cafe, supermarket or bar im mostly served by one of my compatriots, under the age of 25.

So, the indigenous unemployment rate is falling, whilst the foreign born rate skyrockets.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 May 2013 #45
Who votes for it? The people.

True but I must inquire who's asking for it. It does seem (to me) like a vocal minority are trying to push something on an unsuspecting public; it wouldn't be the first time.

I think that the examples we have to behold in countries which have attracted a lot of immigration should be viewed objectively. I wonder how many people are really doing that.
newpip - | 140
28 May 2013 #46
It's unfair to put blame/responsibility of accepting this multi-culti horsesh*t on the shoulders of those who have remained in their country. If we're talking about those who've immigrated/emigrated then they are fair game but not those who've stayed put.

I disagree. If Poles were encouraged to work hard at home perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigrants. If it wasn't such a common occurrence that it is now even standard practice, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need. As it works right now, leaving Poland doesn't seem to be problematic even a better option.

and for every person that has decided to stay at home....a majority probably have some connection to a Pole living outside of the country particularly those that work and send the money back home.

how many Poles are living abroad now? there must be some statistic.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 May 2013 #47
I disagree.

Okay

If Poles were encouraged to work hard at home perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigrants.

Can you explain in what way this responds to the rationale I provided as to why Poles who've elected to stay at home are not guilty of double standards regarding multi-cult?
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
28 May 2013 #48
2, 500, 000 according to some sources. Impossible to put an exact number on it due to the whole transient nature of EU migration.
newpip - | 140
28 May 2013 #49
"it takes a village"......I am sure you know this phrase. Same concept. The only time Poland stands together is during a football match or a war. And those that leave Poland don't truly leave Poland, do they.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
28 May 2013 #50
Europe should give all those outside of it, and of European descent, 'a right to return' visa to cover any of our labour shortages. These people would integrate, unlike people from the third world.

There are also 14, 000, 000 unemployed people throughout Europe. A lot of these people are skilled. We really, really dont need much more immigration.

Even the Swedish are waking up to this multikulti insanity. SD should do well in the next election. If the muslims keep rioting, then they could do very well indeed(check out hanna wigh ;).
Ironside 49 | 10,583
28 May 2013 #51
I disagree. If Poles were encouraged to work hard at home perhaps there wouldn't be a need for immigrants.

you are just making things up as you go, Just stop it you are going from bad to worse. there is no shame in admitting that even after 12 years in Poland you have no clue as to whats what.

If it wasn't such a common occurrence that it is now even standard practice, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need.

Not more than a fraction of the Polish society have experience of working abroad. I'm going be generous and put the number on 10% of the whole. I don't think that is so a great number at all as the Polish and the EU policy encourage such dynamics.

how many Poles are living abroad now? there must be some statistic.

I doubt that, what do you mean by Poles.
Some Poles are migrants - probably majority of those who left, some are emigrants and those who went abroad recently and those who went abroad years ago.In all its hard to say if you put the question like that ie in general rather than specific terms.

I would say that after 2004 about 2 million Poles left for longer that few year.
TheOther 6 | 3,818
28 May 2013 #52
I would say that after 2004 about 2 million Poles left for longer that few year.

According to this source, Poland lost approx. 0.5 people per 1000 population every year since 2000.

indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=pl&v=27
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 May 2013 #53
"it takes a village"......I am sure you know this phrase. Same concept. The only time Poland stands together is during a football match or a war. And those that leave Poland don't truly leave Poland, do they.

Can you explain in what way this responds to the rationale I provided as to why Poles who've elected to stay at home are not guilty of double standards regarding multi-cult?

Or more specifically can you explain how that makes hypocrites out of Poles (regarding an aversion to "multiculturalism") who've elected to stay at home instead of leave for greener pastures?
kondzior 12 | 1,115
29 May 2013 #54
The United States seems pretty successful, for example.If we look at the EU, the richer and more successful nations with in it seem to be the multicultural ones. The basis of your argument appears to be ignorance and prejudice.

No. They became successful earlier, and now they are subiect to multicultural invasions, and slowly but surely gonig down the drain. In 1955 in most of the Western world the crime rate was so infinitesmal, it was nigh non-existent compared to today. A serious crime was front page news all across the country.

When Charles Starkweather went on his murderous rampage in 1957 it was so surreal to the people of the United States it seemed like an alien invasion. Such things were so unheard of they constituted what seemed to be a sea change in the fabric of reality.

In 2013 these things happen ten times a day all over the country and the media can barely be bothered to put it on page three but only if you have an unusual angle like you're going around killing people dressed in a clown suit. Otherwise it's just a typical day in the multicultural paradise. Yes, turning France into a sea of burning cars a couple times a year is just a normal expression of the multicult.
Harry
29 May 2013 #55
There has never been a successful multicultural society in the long term.

Long term there has never been a successful society, no matter how few cultures it had.

Yes, turning France into a sea of burning cars a couple times a year is just a normal expression of the multicult.

As opposed to the burning of books and people which was one of the hallmarks of the delightfully mono-cultured Nazi society. No need for you to tell us which you prefer.

blanket statements are not allowed on this forum anymore.

That in itself is a blanket statement (about blanket statements not being allowed).

Yes you have done ranting and proving my point about double standards and bigotry.

Didn't a moderator recently direct some words your direction about not insulting people?
newpip - | 140
29 May 2013 #56
Living in Poland defies most logic. Just when you think all is figured out then it isn't. Poles have the choice to leave or stay. This choice, itself, is perceived freedom, something that was non existent until recently.

Basically, it boils down to this. Poland doesn't get to close its doors to immigrants while exercising the ability to immigrate.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
29 May 2013 #57
Basically, it boils down to this. Poland doesn't get to

Poland is not a person.
Try not to boil it down too much.
One oversimplifies things when they attempt to reduce the complexity of sometimes conflicting and sometimes unified wants and desires of 38 million people down to simply "Poland doesn't get to...."

I thought we were discussing what people in Poland want or think in regards to the current expressions of multiculturalism, not dictating what the law is for Poles in Poland, or have I missed the spirit of the thread?
ifor bach 11 | 152
29 May 2013 #58
I'll accept that the United States isn't successful when their citizens start emigrating to Poland. At the time of writing, the population flows appear to be solely from monocultural nations to multicultural ones. All evidence suggest you've got it wrong. Just observe the behaviour of others. They vote with their feet for those counries which are open, liberal and multicultural.
Nacjonalista 4 | 96
29 May 2013 #59
Bear in mind that for example - the German economic boom was fuelled with immigrant labour, especially Yugoslavian.

Bear in mind that the American cotton industry was boosted by negro slaves in the 19th century. Short term economic gains are not worth long term detrimental effects to demographics.

Who else is going to do the crap, low paid jobs?

So far I see only Poles cleaning toilets and working at McDonalds in Poland. You fail as usual. Take a break from your computer.
ifor bach 11 | 152
29 May 2013 #60
Bear in mind that the American cotton industry was boosted by negro slaves in the 19th century. Short term economic gains are not worth long term detrimental effects to demographics.

What long-term detrimental effects would these be, brains? When the movie industry is dominated by Poland, when Polish becomes the world language, when Poland dominates youth and music culture, when Polish internet portals become world leaders, when the Polish armed forces are the world's most powerful, then I'll start listening.

Meanwhile, I'm not holding my breath.


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